Kitu Kidogo is Swahili and literally means " something small". This is popularly used In East Africa in reference to bribes given. These bribes appear to have become a way of life as they are given to overcome a range of obstacles ranging from getting out of a minor traffic offence to overcoming inefficiencies in government service delivery. But is this really innocuous or is there a darker side? In this episode, Rowena Musinguzi and David Gonahasa join Melanie to discuss, these bribes. What might be the root causes, dangers, and can we really do without them? Do these bribes serve a purpose in our society, are they a necessary evil?
Social Media handles
Rowena 's Facebook- https://www.facebook.com/row.ro
Rowena's Twitter- @RNM_SoUG
David's Facebook- https://www.facebook.com/david.gonahasa
David's Twitter-@gonahasa
M's View Facebook- https://www.facebook.com/MelKaita1
Mel's Twitter- @LizAbwooli
Melanie 0:11
Hi, and welcome to another episode of Mel's View, the podcast that goes into topics that you think about topics that you don't want to think about. So we talk about anything and everything really, as long as it's interesting. We'll do it. And my name is Melanie, your host, and I'm joined by two amazing people. Rowena Musinguzi, who is a concerned citizen and another fellow concerned citizen , David Gonahasa. Thank you guys for joining me for this one. How are you? How are you guys?
Good. How are you? Melanie? Thank you for the invite. Haha. Oh, really? I try and be informal. Hey, yes, what's up, Jake, what's up.
Unknown Speaker 0:57
I'm really happy to be here.
Melanie 0:59
Thank you so much for actually taking the invitation both of you. So now we're talking about you know, a thing that all of us Uganda's forget Africans, but all of us, Ugandan are very familiar with, it's become our daily life one way or the other. And we're going to use these words and also phrases and call them things like greasing the wheels. Facilitating facilitation, and I'm not going to use the other derogatory terms because we don't want to bias anyone in terms of his compensation. But in terms of greasing the wheels in terms of a Ugandan institutions where they runs back from the extra company we give the the soldier why we are going through and we're late past, you know curfew, right up to monies that disappear sometimes with our government. Is this necessary evil in our Ugandan society is this where does come to where in Uganda nothing can work and function and should not function? Are there any benefits? And this is a whole discussion we're going to have at any benefits to greasing the wheels in terms of Ugandan context and ambitious going to start with you Rubina, what are your thoughts in terms of the greasing wheels kind of process key to kadogo type thing?
Unknown Speaker 2:21
Allow me to start on a sort of macro. Yeah, you point and then zero in the Ugandan case. Yeah. In terms of calling corruption and African thing. I really object to that classification. I feel like greasing the wheels happens everywhere. Whether you're in Vietnam, or in France, we're gonna do in Kampala. What differs is the cultural context and the extent, okay, and the intent. Okay, so so so let's just like bookmark those three words, cultural concepts, cultural context, intent, and extent. Okay. Now bring it back to the Ugandan the Ugandan experience. There are types of Get Up Dog, greasing the wheels that are innocuous. The tip you give to the bellhop who carries your bags, or to the supermarket attendant who you know helps you return your trolley and all of that. That's not bad. The idea that it's a hot day, and the traffic officer is in the sweltering heat, and people are like, here's a soda. That's not bad. But then it gets dark when it becomes extortionate. When people become entitled, when people become grasping, and when people abuse other people's goodwill. And the worst is when it endangers service delivery to vulnerable people. Now, for me, that's where I draw the line. I have no objection, for example, to, let's say, a government officials having taxpayer money spent on them, and there's their immediate families, because I don't see why the British taxpayer can give up keep for Prince William's third cousin, and it's a good thing. But then the Ugandan taxpayer supporting the wife of the Minister of Trade is a bad thing. Why wait, wait, is it a bad thing? I feel like yes, there are those among us who are privileged. Not everybody gets to have that privilege. I accept that Not everybody can be in the real family. Not everybody can be in government, I accept that. What I don't accept is to have millions of people dying from things that have already been budgeted for. Let's say there are no malaria drugs in the hospitals. But the money was budgeted for. The need was anticipated. And things were put in place to save lives. If you go and take all of that money, and 16 people are dropping dead every day because you took that money, surely, what are you on about? Like, I feel like it's, for me. It's clear cut.
Melanie 5:45
Okay, okay. And David,
Unknown Speaker 5:47
you know, it's funny when you call it key to key dog. Or greasing the wheels all these nice stamps they make it sounds
Melanie 5:54
like it's a communist leader saying exactly this
Unknown Speaker 5:57
corruption, right. It's not it's not you know, just yeah, just you know, play around it, right. Yeah. What is corruption? So it's as broad as you know, influence peddling, nepotism, embezzlement all these things will fit within that kadaga framework as we call it, right? Because yeah, I'm basically finding a way to steal money. Yeah, it is stealing money in most cases or extort or whatever. Yeah. When you want to say something about the the the bellhop or I mean, that's a tip, but tips a tip that's very different. Right. Like, that's, that's me expressing gratitude for what you've done for me. Yeah. But when you come back to the Ugandan context, it goes back to a failure in the distribution of resources of money, right. And as such, people need to find a way to leave or survive, so they find ways to fund their lifestyle. So for example, if I am a government employee, I paid 800,000 shillings a month, my kids need to go to decent schools. How are you going to do that? There's just no way you're going to be done if you can afford to, right. So I think the reason for corruption first of all, is because there's a general failure in distribution of resources of money. And what happened is people are finding ways to pay themselves right. So safe Take for example, the police guys on the road at at, you know, midnight, 2am stopping guys driving out during curfew. Now. They they're paid 80 or 150,000 shillings a month, whatever it is that they're paid. They live in in uniport. So many of them they live in the worst possible way. deplorable state. And they need to cover their basic costs, right? So the only way they can do it is give me that 5000 Give me that 3000 And it keeps compounding and eventually you go man, you can buy food. So I want is corruption right? is catered could overwrite No, right? Morally, it is wrong. Is it necessary? Unfortunately, unless there is a change in how resources are distributed to the people who need them, only then will we start seeing this stop.
Melanie 8:00
Okay, so I have a question. And I think Raveena kind of touched on this. And the whole idea of understanding that or thinking that this whole corruption could all go is unique to us Africans, right? I understand around the world, they some form of it. But uh, now I want to get your take on this, I've always thought the difference is that I'll give an example for like a road, let's say a road is going to cost. Let's just give it a ballpark figure of 800 million right to construct. In, it seems like other advanced countries, though, say is going to cost 900 million, right? If despite it's going to cost 800 million, they will take the 100 million, but that road will exist in rd, Africa, Uganda, that God is going to cost 1 billion. And they'll take 800 of it. And the 200 that is left will not even be enough to construct to buy the materials necessary for that road. So in essence, the road will not exist at all. So for me, it's not and when you talk about the intent for me, it's just the scale, not just the scale of it the extent of greed. Like I find and for me, it's I've always asked myself the question, is it because I'll go back come back to that later. But the idea that everywhere people are cheating, stealing, paying all those kinds of things, it's just that the extent is diabolical. Like there is nothing to show for it. And most Ugandans, I feel would seven on give us the road katako Take your cut. Give us the road like around the world. Everyone is taking a cut With as parliamentarians, President, like we look at the US and you see some of the contracts that are going in different places. So all all boys club, everyone is getting paid. However, those things are bought, those hospitals are built. Those doctors are paid, you know, like you like yes, let them take a bit copper, give us services, Uganda will be the services don't exist. Like for me, the lead for me one of the little things that horrified me. So some family was involved with oxygen tanks that was supposed to happen during COVID. And the oxygen tanks just Yes, whatever happens oxygen tanks. So for me, it's the idea that that in dangerous, but there is a blatant disregard of all that is going to happen. What do you what's your take on that, like Rui knows that with you?
Unknown Speaker 10:52
I think it's 50% disregard. And 50% limited intelligence?
Melanie 11:00
Well,
Unknown Speaker 11:01
I'm sorry. And everybody who knows me is that I have a well known established brand of truth. Okay, see,
Melanie 11:09
oh, no. Yes.
Unknown Speaker 11:11
Okay. Okay, I'll give you an example. If there was one tonne of maize, in this little Republic called One again, right. And I decided that as the Queen of one digger, I must take 800 kilos for my family, and the rest of the inhabitants of one together, can can, you know, deal with the 200 kilos that are left? Inevitably, I would move on to something else, you know, I would move on to everybody in one day, who was a chicken must, must give me half of it. Because it's a finite pot. Europeans, Americans, Asians, I would get that 800 kilos of maize, and, and plant and plant and give out free seed to my nationals and say, for every bucket of maize that you reap half is mine, because I gave you I gave you the free seed. So essentially, for every, I'm a farmer. So I know this, for every 12 kilos that you put in the ground. That's an acre of maize that you plant and you will get around 800 kilos in post harvest. So every time they plant, every acre has 400 kilos for me, so I establish a perpetuity me and mine will always have 50% of everything else that other people are making. And they will not be granted to me because I have told them that I've given them free seed. And so I'm just like benefactor. So I'm just trillionaire I'm this Walmart, I'm this, you know, Rockefeller, and in perpetuity, people are paying half of their harvest to me. We started from the same scenario, different outcomes. If you look at our resources, a seed, there is a way to profit more than others without killing off or starving off your piece. And for me, that's the big distinction. Okay, okay. David,
Unknown Speaker 13:44
did you hear the story of the of the Ugandan minister and the British minister, right? So Ugandan guy flies to the UK gets to this beautiful house, right? And he's like, Yo, how do you do this? Right? The guy takes him to the balcony and shows him a road and say this is the road that road did it for me, right? Then the guy said okay, so you're gonna guideline so it comes back to Uganda. And then a couple of years later, the British guy comes to Qatar to visit it and so he goes to this huge mansion, right? I'm talking crazy. And then he takes into the box is how do you do this is like, Come on, show you. So you take it to the balcony and say you see the road? It's like what road?
Unknown Speaker 14:25
Unfortunately, that's the level of greed that you have. Right. So, you know, my first statement, I say that because of a failure of resource distribution. It then leads to this whole you know, state of kitchen, Adobo and all that. Yeah. On the other hand, there's there's the other side of this, which is just later greed, right? Where you you steal, steal, steal, and keep stealing. Now the unfortunate thing and someone said this a couple years ago, they say that the problem with a lot of African countries is that the constant change of power was offered to people who unfortunately don't do not have right so the take the signal again tomorrow The first thing you want to do is you want to buy all those things you never had, because you struggled for so many years in the bush, now you're like, No, I need to start, you know, taking some taking some money, and then you know, and you kind of think it will stop. But unfortunately, we've always lived with money, when you get some, you'll lose one more much once you keep getting more and more and more. And what's happened is that you have a whole generation that has, you know, had kids who have grown up that way. So I met a guy once. And he's like, I'm looking for a job. I say, yeah, what job do you want to get? And he's like, I want to get a job in government. And he's like, why? Because you can do deals, right? So this whole deal, his whole deal, culture has been so entrenched in people. So you'll find, for example, guys, like, it starts from the fuel for the from the fuel pump, right? So you start realizing that, and actually, it starts as kids because you know, those times they send you go by kilo of sugar, and you buy a half and a quarter. And then you keep the quarter, and then it keeps keeps developing and growing. Because unfortunately, as a society, we glorify money, right? Now, the way the money is gotten doesn't matter. Because you're going to go into churches. And you find this guy's paying for the front pew in the church. And unfortunately, this idiot has just been stealing money from government. But then guess what, the church accepted this money, right? And yet the church should be the one condemning corruption and it's not right. So unfortunately, we have come to a certain point where as people, as a nation, as a country, we actually accept corruption. We respect it, we glorify people who steal, and it's just, you know, trickling down to the kids and their kids. And it's, it's, you know, it's fine. Which is wrong. Yeah.
Melanie 16:37
Now, you touched on an interesting point that and I kept on thinking to myself, because I've had this from certain circles, specifically, my dad, one of them, where he used to tell me, Look, your leadership is a reflection of who you are, right, as a people, and who you vote into power, who you make you leaders are just a reflection of what you aspire to be right, not the other way around. And I didn't I didn't understand that. And he just told me Look, look at the old anything as far back as the Senate in Rome, right, and how they picked their leaders. And they said, we'll pick the best, not because we want to be elitist, but we want to aspire to that level, and then make the nation aspire to those ideals, those levels, those kinds of things. And, and he will he didn't mince any words, this is a problem with Ugandan, a lot of Africans, we have peasants in power. And I'm like, if you have peasants whose moral compass is so skewed, right? You're going to have that trickle down. So basically, you you make thieves, and you'll be you know, you'll be robbed, you make thieves, you leaders, you'll be robbed. So it gets to a point of cause and effect. So the question is, you're like, oh, corruption, but then we are voting these leaders. We were, you know, holding up this particular people and putting questionable people have have questionable qualifications and moral compasses in leadership from the parliamentarians and up where you just make, but your qualifications. Like we have ministers were you like, Okay, next, so,
Unknown Speaker 18:23
I think I think I think peasants, peasants don't come into this picture. Okay. Peasant understand seed. Okay. Peasants understand season, peasants understand sowing, and they understand growth. They understand husbandry that you must water the cow if you want to milk. Yeah, what we have are Grifters. And so that's why our cows are not watered. Okay.
Unknown Speaker 18:49
No, it is this this poverty thing, right. So you know, you talk about Pizitz, right? Unfortunately, when you when you go to many of these villages, and you find the rich guy of the village, right? They, they all aspire to this person. Now, what happens, unfortunately, is that the guys who get into power, unfortunately, for many of them come from very poor backgrounds. Someone wants to say that Africa's problem is just poverty, and the absence of knowledge that we have the resources to get out of poverty, right? Because there's no point why we go into the ground, dig gold, smelt it, and then ship it out, and then buy back the rings and buy back all these things. Because we're going from corruption, this whole like, you know, Africa's problem really is we just have a huge poverty mindset. Because when you have a poverty mindset, what what do you do you hoard, you buy and hoard. So you won't even invest in your own countries. To an extent I feel like, it's okay for you to steal as long as you're stealing and building the house in your bucket. But then you're going to go and steal and go and buy apartments into bite. What and what's the point of that? And also goes back to this thing of the whole leadership question. For for a very long time. I've always argued I don't believe in adult mass suffrage, right? I don't I don't believe about equality anything Oh,
Melanie 20:02
I just let go. Let's go into that. Anyway,
Unknown Speaker 20:05
I think that um, so you've heard about Lee Kuan Yew and how he built Singapore and all this. And you need an extent of dictatorship to change things The reason the reason why exactly why Dubai is changing is because you have leadership that have decided and have been given the time to actually do these things and change these things right. Now, you can compare it to a country where we have, you know, 3040 years, whatever it is, which should be the same thing, fortunately, I feel like this leadership is kept in place purely based on patronage. Right. Okay. So I'm not going to choose the best I'm going to choose the most loyal because it's the one where you stay in leadership, right? In Dubai, there's no, there's no, there's no competition, right? I mean, look, I Kigali, Rwanda, this guy gets up and says, I will change my country, right? Because there was a joke that you know, they actually use your gun and policies and implement your gun and policies in that country because we have great policies we if you read you got this policy paper some of the best in the world, right? If you read our our stats on corruption, one of the best you know, but there's no punitive nothing you know, you someone steals money. And then, you know, there's this guy. He I think it was fired from from from ura. And then he goes and becomes an MP. Now, a lot of respect for this guy, you're probably he's done well in this business. But where's the moral compass? Where's where's the shame, right? It's gotten to the point where we have no shame, but I'll steal. In fact, it's it gets worse. Right? I was saying something earlier before we got in here where someone says, I am the son of so and so. And, you know, this, there's just no more shame in this country. So unfortunately, there's a leadership problem as how we choose our leaders. There's a poverty mindset problem, which means that it's hard for us to actually start saying, We won't accept this. Because the second you say no, and I commend you, I'll give you a million shillings. Okay. All that really has changed leadership as change how we want our lives to pass change. Our mind start to change x exposures after changes so much has changed for you to actually change.
Melanie 22:02
Is there a possibility? And unruliness? We'll start with the unless one, is there possibility that the reason as to why we have never had leaders invested in long term real development in this in this country is because we're not we they didn't live long enough to see the consequences of their choices. I'll give you an example. For instance, let's say where you go from ancient Rome, the the guys decided their roads are gonna outlive them. Right? So the built roads, and now those roads, some of those roads still exist, right? So they for them, they were thinking terms of legacy. But not only that, as as their societies progressed, so did their lifespan, would it be, what we call it, how long they lived, so to speak. So the average age moved from 30, to 50, to 60, to 80. So now people decide to make decisions based on hey, I could be I could live long enough to see the consequences of these choices. So all of a sudden, I am not just thinking about oh, Me and Me Myself, I'm thinking of me, my children, my children's children, my traditional legacy, because we literally go past 3040 years old. And literally, it's our generation is the first one is going to hit comfortably all of us 60 If everything goes constant, where our parents are in shock that they've lived past 6070. And for us, it's just a given while overseas. This has been happening Japan, one of the countries that has some of the longest legacy, but also some of the best infrastructure in the world where they are planning literally in terms of centuries, not decades anymore. They're just like, how long does this does this railway last? How long does this last? And I find that is it possible that for Africans because we had such a short lifespan at some point? We didn't think past our noses when again, it's okay. It's just still here. Still, they still move on? What do you think about that?
Unknown Speaker 24:00
I don't think it's so much about that, as it is about most of us have never seen nation building. So I'll take you to the wild. No, a lion cub. We'll see how a hunt is done. How you have to stake claim, you know, chase down the antelope and blah, blah, blah. So, a lion cub will grow up and a lion will never fight over a dead carcass. Look at hyenas. They don't know about the hunt. They don't know about stakeouts, they don't know about how to get fresh meat. All they know is how to find the carcass and carve it up and try to fight with the nearest hire to carve out the biggest chunk. But the idea of how to bring fresh meat to the table is alien to them. And so a lot of our leaders have the hyena my mindset, and what they're missing is the hunt. So they look at the GDP and they're like, how do I carve this up? They don't look at how do I hunt? How do I bring down an elephant? How do I bring down a buffalo? How do I how do we kill three antelopes instead of one? And, and for me, fixing that is is a one generation thing. So so I don't have one. You only need children to see the hunter once.
Unknown Speaker 25:34
It's gonna take a while for Africa.
Melanie 25:37
asses. I don't know, man, like you're optimistic. I'm thinking centuries,
Unknown Speaker 25:42
because think about it this century at least not think about it this way. For the longest time Europe was like us. Yes. And then yes, industrial revolution happened. And push and out of that. That generation that grew up in the industrial revolution, then gave us the manufacturing boom. And their children gave us the 80s which was the stock market, boom. Yeah, yeah. And their children have given us the tech boom. So when you connect the dots between the Industrial Revolution and the tech boom, for someone to be able to envisage something that's out there, like, listen, we've been eating antelope, but I just saw a giraffe passing. How do we bring that giraffe to the table? That Hunter mindset takes one generation to engender
Unknown Speaker 26:29
also getting the new kaboom in Kampala? Yeah, it I like the fact that you got as a minister of ethics and integrity. Right, so that when you look at Europe, and many of those States and Japan, for example, you know, there's this thing called legacy that many of us leave for. And the way legacy is defined in many of those catches that have changed is different. So legacy is based on your contribution to humankind, right. So that's why you have things like the Nobel Prizes. That's why you have you know, Shakespeare and all these people who contributed so much literature. So when people were doing things, it was not about me today and my kids, it's about what am I going to give or leave in the world, right? So I'm not going to remember exactly why it won't be your, your, your 60 floater with your name on it, and you will realize that in a lot of the West, they're not exactly really 500 really respected, I do a real estate mogul. Great. The only way you under respect is when you start to give to fill out philanthropic causes, and you give as much as you can, then now you can actually sit at the table of the people who change the world and listen to you. So unfortunately, there's this there's this problem in Uganda, most of Africa as well, where legacy is it? How much you have been able to amass how much you've been able to hold how much you've been able to keep right? And you're taught early on?
Unknown Speaker 27:53
Can I interject there? We pretend like they didn't have those people they did. Or they did Marie Antoinette, Tsar Nicholas, those were people who had this new car mindset that we have here today. And and what happened was tragic, got kicked out. bloodily
Unknown Speaker 28:14
the, the bread kicked out Mergent.
Unknown Speaker 28:19
But But essentially, it it it woke the younger generations on to the fact that if the people beneath you don't prosper with you, they stop wishing you well. And so the idea of philanthropy was born, that that in order for people to be happy for you. Even if you give 10% or 2%, there has to be an element of other people must prosper with me.
Unknown Speaker 28:47
In a country where and I've had I've had chats with people sometimes, right? So someone tells you, you know, you get into this age, it's time start consolidating sometimes like keeping, though you're taught from in Uganda you're taught from when you're 20. Like it's it's not the absence of risk. It's basically saying that listen, life is this box, right? And in this box is what happens you leave you go to school, you get married, you have two kids, you build a house in Nigeria, and you buy a Harrier and you leave right and that's this is really what the garden dream is. So many people live in trying to achieve that the ones who break out to that box, the ones who are able to steal, and then they're respected. So it's I lost my train of thought, but it's this this thing where unless we start changing our mindsets, and our dreams are not one to achieve, and think of legacy differently, where it's more about how much more you give back to the world and how much more you amass. Only then do you start seeing people saying no to stealing and corruption and creating the right structures to be able to develop. I asked myself every typewriter when when Ugandan when African presidents fly into Europe or flying to Asia or fly to Dubai. How do you feel your country can't you don't even have pavements on the roadside pavements is what a huge engineering marvels It's a payment. How do you feel when you go into a place like that, and you have the resources in the ground? It's funny that we're talking about Uganda, but think about a place like Congo.
Melanie 30:13
Just yeah, it just gets
Unknown Speaker 30:14
worse and worse and worse. Central African Republic. Yes. Lots of resources. Yeah, I mean, Equatorial Guinea, they have so much oil. But the sign of the president is out being a playboy carrying cash into into Brazil. I mean, the parties, this guy by it must have just, I just think about them. And I'm like, wow, I'd want to, you know, go to these parties. But the whole corruption thing is going to, it only starts changing. Hold it, this whole generation thing you mentioned right now, it only starts changing when we start to change what we view as success, what we view as life what we view as all those things, and then, you know, the moral compass changes.
Melanie 30:53
Hey, Melanie, here, if you like this episode, please be sure to share it her friend. And also don't forget to subscribe. And do you have any thoughts? I got good news for you then share those thoughts. on Facebook. It's EMS view symbol, that's the name EMS view, Facebook page, like, subscribe, share. Cheers. I wonder though, because and I don't know if this is connected in any way to understanding of corruption as how we see ourselves in terms of our self worth our identity. So yeah, I agree. Go ahead. If
Unknown Speaker 31:36
I, I believe that we feel as a nation as Ugandans that worth worthiness is luck. You know, like, not everybody is worthy. But lucky if
Unknown Speaker 31:51
you are luck or Range Rover. Lucky.
Unknown Speaker 31:57
Okay, whether that luck if you are driving Range Rovers or living in Nigeria is, you know, semantics. But the idea that everybody is worthy is alien. Mm hmm. Like the whole idea of like, Mukhisa. You know, like, like Lucky. Yeah, yeah. Now or analogy? It's always.
Unknown Speaker 32:21
It's always, it's like
Unknown Speaker 32:23
one of the hubs inside sugar that's supposed to be good for for
Melanie 32:29
Nikolina? How do you know these things? What's going on? Because because I like to
Unknown Speaker 32:33
learn. Like Wait, wait.
Melanie 32:42
What? Is this a specific one in there? That gives me like, specifically specifically?
Unknown Speaker 32:52
we digress? No, but yeah, but bottom line is, if you don't think everybody's inherently deserving, inherently imbued with some dignity and some expectation of, of, of a worthy life of, of the basic needs the basic, like human rights, you know, that was in the charter. If you feel like those are for the lucky few, then then you don't hold anybody accountable and you don't aspire to them. The idea of infant mortality doesn't shock you. You're like, Oh, those are the unlucky ones. Like you don't feel Yeah, you don't feel taken aback? Like really? Why? It's kind of like why not? And that that's a that's a vital, vital component that's missing. I know, again, in our society, psyche,
Melanie 33:39
to come to that. And to add to that, I just also wonder if it's possible, because you've seen how our leaders couriers carry themselves, African leaders carry themselves on international stage, then you see how the European leaders carry themselves international stage, just just press conference, and the and the, and the pictures and the photos and posture, right. And so one seems subservient and the other and seems like Yeah, I'm okay, I'm here, you know, well, it's like gods like, Oh, I'm begging, I'm begging, I'm begging. I'm begging. So my idea. My question is, in terms of corruption, and again, these things seem to stem from our understanding of who we are an identity. I'll give an example. For instance, I my high level, not high level, my quick, dummy summary of what happened to China was China decided, or they're in trouble. They can't compete. They close themselves off. And internally worked on processes and stole a bit of technology along the way, a lot. And refined it and refined
Unknown Speaker 34:44
want to push you back to the leaders on the world stage. Yeah. And I'm going to pick an example we all know, in Uganda, a lot of people who are from families that are educated, and their children to boarding schools. So we all know this boarding school thing. Some people, their parents would pay the teacher, the matron, the dining room, you know, percent extra. And so when everybody else is having Porsche and beans, they would be having much okay. And everybody would be like a mama. Nobody would feel this sense of injustice. Like, why, why? Why do you get to eat my truck and I get to eat Porsche? That's sort of like a mama. I wish my my dad was also a minister. So I could also eat. But okay, but no sense of injustice. You couldn't do that in Europe? people be like, yeah, all the children it might Okay, yes. All the children eat Portia. Like, this whole thing of everyone is the same as everybody, everybody's entitled, not the same in the sense that they want homogeneity, but the dignity imbued in every person. Yeah. You know, like, for example, if an American is kidnapped in Uganda, it doesn't matter who someday are, the entire government of America will be like, but they're an American. They're imbued with the same dignity as, as Joseph Clinton, or as Laura Bush, the American in Uganda is more than one, you know, if over over simony lineal yamasa day, or your Ooh, so what's new, um, be gotcha turtle, mommy, the unlucky one, you know. So this whole idea of everybody being inherently imbued with the same dignity is missing in our life viewpoint. And that's why we allow to sit at a dining table with 20 other students and one person is eating mattock and chicken and the other and is getting pushed on beans. And there's no, right. There's no sense of what everybody is just a mom, there's some kind of acceptance. And you come from that dining room table, and go to a boardroom and go to a conference, and it's the same construct
Unknown Speaker 36:51
goes back this feeling of you know, we, either it's unfortunate, generally, African people feel lesser than right, or feel undeserving in very many cases. So I love tourism a lot, right. And that's, that's pretty much what I do for a living. But what I find interesting is when you travel to some of these expos, or these, you know, huge conferences and things, and you walk into a room, and this room has everyone in it, it and the Africans are not hunting, they're sitting on their own like this on the side, right? You will go and and you ask yourself, why aren't you going out there? When you've been bald? Why didn't you actually selling cars? Yes, if anything, you have a much richer, you know, tourism product to sell. I mean, we are traveling to Dubai, right? To go and see a desert. And we are happy to travel in droves. And so many guys are going out there. And you compare that to what we have here. And we just we're just not proud enough. So it goes back to this table of self worth. And I agree with you. Because if you don't feel worthy, you won't have the confidence to actually get up and say, you know, I can do this. And so since you can't do it, what do you do you steal because there's a way to buy what you want.
Unknown Speaker 37:56
I think I think we can actually sort of pivot off that onto a conversation David and I had earlier in the day about self worth and how we take the low self worth that we have and stamp it on everything that is ours. So for example, I was telling him like you walk into a whole foods in California and it's like an upgraded nakasero market. organic tomatoes, quinoa, which is omega it's like white sorghum, you know, sweet potatoes and all of that, you know, and for them that's that's the apex now for us. in Kampala, we are ashamed of these things. Were like, huh, but your hope you eat millet? Yes. Like like like I cannot. You know when when when your child is having friends over your little sisters having friends over and there's milk on the table. She's like, let me order KFC my friends are coming. Why? Were you ordering KFC? I guess it tastes better. So no, it doesn't. It's this idea. Yeah, that KFC is on this level and our food is lower down is unworthy. And yet, you know, several 1000 miles away. The ghettos are full of people are fed up of KFC, but they can't afford an organic tomato. And they can't afford millet and they can't afford sweet potatoes. They just can't they only buy the sweet potatoes once a year at Thanksgiving, your way as we buy chicken once a year at Christmas for them. They basically put it was once a year at Thanksgiving, or pumpkin once I like for us it's like it's everywhere all year round. And we're ashamed of it. We think it's inferior. So that's why you find like somebody who has parents who grew up in karate is like I only eat sushi. Why? Because in their heads, Japan is up there. And Uganda is down here and I'm like, actually no. And then the Himba Naka you know because I know the value of what we have. And once you get to that point where you realize that the value that we seek is already within, if you can get an entire population to know that, then you have the momentum that you need to make all these changes, because inherently humans want to survive. Inherently people want good things. But if you tell them that everything that they are, and everything that they have is bad, then they're running away from themselves. And that's the crisis that we're in as a nation,
Unknown Speaker 40:29
it takes a lot of exposure to to know that and I think growing up as the has the opportunity of exposure, and that's something that helps, you know, because for for a guy who grew up in Katanga, and now he has a job he has this job is like, Yo, it is my it is my time to eat. I mean, you've had him he's going to limit and they make it clear that it is now my time to eat. To be very honest, I wish that actor guy had actually won the next race because he said, the first one was now it's been defined that way. And I like what, you know, I like how this chart went around from, like, you know, is it necessary? And then we start to understand why yes, if you can explain the why and yeah, actually diagnose that problem. Maybe just maybe the generational changes speak about can start to happen.
Unknown Speaker 41:15
And I think once you know that, why then you realize that it is not necessary that there is enough room for everybody to prosper. But
Melanie 41:26
the right people, the right people will get the Range Rovers like now and again, right people the right people,
Unknown Speaker 41:32
ones that work hard.
Melanie 41:34
Yes, that's the right people. Okay, so, David, you're talking about the issue of exposure? Can you kind of go about into that a bit?
Unknown Speaker 41:43
If I, if I grew up in Ali's example of, of our parents, right. So you grew up in a small village in Cabo ad, that's the life that you know, that's what you know, okay. So for you success is defined. It's, it's simple. Now, when you when you grow up in that in Cadbury and you start to see, you know, planes flying and all these things, and you want this stuff, but then you do not know how to be able to make this money, the one way to do it is to steal it. I think, for me, corruption, Khidr, Fedorko, all those things, it is theft, okay. So you still to try to find months, these desires and dreams. Because, you know, the work options don't make very much sense, you know, and just anything from the exposure perspective, if you have had the chance to travel, I mean, I'm sure we know struggled quite a bit you've traveled, you've seen you know, better you see people actually work and create success. You know, we like to relate to Zuckerberg and all these guys, right? If you've spent time in Silicon Valley, and you see how people build things from nothing, you start to appreciate that you can also do it, you start to have a game and go back to self worth but also self belief, and you're able to say I can do this.
Melanie 43:03
Okay, so now for me my my issue of contention in that particular understanding of the and how you went about the in terms of exposure is it almost seems like you're saying humble beginnings equal.
Unknown Speaker 43:21
Not true, is not true. I only listen, you can only dream about things that you can perceive. You know what I mean? Me unless you I will not, I will not sit here and think that I'm able to build a great company unless I've seen other people do it, or I start to imagine it's possible. Uh huh. Uh huh. So what exposure gives you it gives you the opportunity to see that there's other ways of doing things. You know, stealing is not the only way. Cookie dog as a coach, you don't need to do deals, you can actually work hard. You can build things over time, and you can you can make money.
Melanie 44:00
Hmm. I'm struggling with this. I don't know why. Because my issue is that we have people who come from humble beginnings and have aspired to have better lives, and still decided that they go to was hard work, not corruption,
Unknown Speaker 44:17
just just to clarify this. I am not in any way saying that humble beginnings will not lead to success. Okay, no, no. So what happens is you go from this humble beginning, and then you go to school, that is your first level of exposure. Right? So education is the fast basis. The next thing is that in some cases, you'll find that many of the downtown guys no, this country has some of the features. The reason people are traders. The reason why these traders grew is first of all, they had an option. So this guy begins selling my Tokyo selling whatever he's selling, he starts to make some money he he has about, oh, you can start importing buttons, right? Identify the need. You start buying buttons from another guy. Then you go to China, and you realize, oh my god, I can take all these things back to Uganda. I was in a good chance to go to Dubai once, right? And I am in this hotel and I'm really hungry and I ordered a thing called a parotta. Okay, it's really just a party with it's like a Rolex. Oh, okay. It's just a rock, simple Indian rap. And I come back here and I think to myself, forget about the thing about shawarma, for example, you in this country, Sharma costs 15,000, or something like that, in reality, it should cost five, that should be streetfood. But the only way that it becomes streetfood is by one Rolex guy traveling and realizing, oh, I can actually do this myself. And then they start and that's the exposure I'm speaking of, aside from traveling, it's other ways to you know, now you can use other beings to be able to have another view of life.
Melanie 45:44
Okay. Okay. So it is it does give you the exposure does give you the options in terms of do not have to steal, these are the other ways to get to it. Okay. All right. Okay. Okay, cool. Got it. Get it now, Rowena, anything on your mind?
Unknown Speaker 45:58
I'd like to take you back to something I said at the beginning about a hyena mentality and the lion mentality. In a hyena mentality, you look around at all the various meat on the savanna, you know, and you're like, how do I grab the hind leg of that zebra? And how do I grab the head off of that buffalo? But then your idea is like a, that buffalo is going to get finished? How do I get a big chunk of it? Because then I'm going to go and hide it in a corner somewhere and eat it all week? How do I get a leg off that zebra and hide it behind a bush so that I eat it all week. But when you look around at the walking zebras, none of them occurs to you as food. Because the idea of, of bringing something to the table yourself is alien, only stretching a huge chunk of what's already on the table. Makes sense to you. And let's say the Asian tigers, you know that the hunter mentality, a tiger mentality, the land mentality, they would look at France, America, Brazil, and they would see zebras, and they be like, how do I hunt a zebra? How do I hunt a jury? Yeah. And that's why you have like Chinese sending their kids to like Stanford. Yeah. And they're like, listen, we heard this an animal called Silicon Valley. How does it look? How do we hunt? One? How do we bring one down? And how do we bring one to our table? Yeah. And so for me, that dichotomy of thought, the hyena mentality where you're looking at how do I snatch the biggest chunk of what is on the table? Or how do I bring so much more to the table?
Unknown Speaker 47:48
Integrating value, right, so just just by I like what you're saying about hyenas, and lions. And the problem is that, you know, you make money based on value that you create, okay, and then there's that definition. So unfortunately, in a place where we see you make money by getting a job and jobs are very important things and great things that people should get jobs with. But you find people just so used to No, it's not for me, I'm not the one going to do this. So like you said, you become a hyena. So you're sitting there, you're like, Okay, what what's your deal? 801? No, DT Oh, the best I like, the best I like is no bad deal. That's my favorite thing. Ever. So we're sitting having a conversation, and we're doing a business deal. And the guy says, I didn't like what about, you?
Melanie 48:36
Know? Wow.
Unknown Speaker 48:41
Level of a title. Yeah, you know, and we just need to change we need to change how we, how we look at life, we change how we look at creating money, how generating money generally and learn to build value, if you can build value, if we can look at our gold and our product and our plant and everything else work together great value, it starts to change.
Melanie 49:00
Now, there's a question I want to ask. And, and this was comes off the back of the trauma that I recently faced, of trying to get the national ID. And that took quite a bit of doing however, I have since learned that I'm one of the lucky few, it takes some people a year, a year and a half and sometimes two years and some people have just altogether given up on the enterprise, right. However, the process of getting the ID was I got to a point where somewhere in between the process because I I think I applied for it in February of this year. And somewhere along the process, it was found out that I had the wrong gender assigned to me on my name, Mr. mellott cm instead of CF. And and you guys, and from that point in time, I was like, let's pray today was like I was like, okay, so this is a quick fix. And now the quick fix took another four months. But here's for me the icing on the cake. I said, Okay, know what, when it finally the I look up and the code says, oh, it's ready for pickup, it is going to be go pick up the damn thing it will take you know more than an hour based on the traffic going in. Right? Not based on the on the process, it's just that if there are many people picking up, it takes 30 minutes to an hour to two hours based on the traffic. And lo and behold, five hours to pick up one ID. And all I could think about while I was trying to rattle off certain emails and putting things together, while I'm in that line, I'm like, I'm like live with losing my mind. And I said, who sits here? Five hours a whole workday gone? To do this, and why? And how, and what in this process says, I have to wait eight months to a year to half a year to get an ID and then just fucking pick it up. Takes me a whole day. And who has the time. So no wonder people are paying people in between there to say, expedite this for me because I ain't got time for this nonsense, right? Because I determined and I said I'm not going to pay anyone anything. And lo and behold, eight months took me to get an idea. And they even now it took us a year took us a year and a half of what but you cannot do anything in this country without the bloody idea that anything productive to a certain extent, right. I have found. And you know, for me, the thing that killed me is that that apparently this country has gotten developed an amazing unnerving knack of being efficient when it doesn't need to be case in point. When you come into into this country, and you're using an A foreign visa, right, and you buy a SIM card, your visa and your SIM card attached to the expiry date, right, that day, your visa expires, your SIM card gets deactivated, I had the pleasure of experiencing that it happened to that day, literally they sent me a warning. And then they said your visa is expiring, you know visit spying the state, if you don't have an visa can renew it, blah, blah, blah. Next day, it was off. That's
Unknown Speaker 52:26
because you experienced the efficiency of a multinational.
Melanie 52:30
Was it that really? Was it because now I want to ask myself that question because I'm like, Okay, so these are totally different entities and then they have just variations of of, what's it called? Efficient, whatever
Unknown Speaker 52:43
the IDs are multinational company, it's near and then you obviously guys work government executes,
Melanie 52:50
but but again, haha, now we're coming to that. Now, I asked myself, Is this because the government has no, this country seems to have systems that work efficiently, but don't give a fuck about them. And then the ones that need to work are not working? So give an example go to go to school? Not the one for the driving licence? One, right. Yeah. And formally, for now, it's no longer face. So my sister told me not you need to get this ID quickly because she the minute they announced a couple years back that he was getting away from face technology, going down to a ministry. She did not have it expired, and she just went to renew it because she's like, you guys, it's going to go to shit. And I was like, okay, okay, so it's like, it used to be one hour, just to renew an idea as I read and renew the driving license, like, Okay, I'm hopeful. I went five hours for the driving license, was it not for the driving license? Five hours? I was like, Oh, that is just deteriorated quickly. Wow. So for me, I'm just like, Okay, so is it just like you said, the difference between a multinational company and the government system in terms of variation of efficiency? And of course, that comes down to the thing that no one has that time. Right? Like, literally when I went, Oh, no,
Unknown Speaker 54:06
no, no. You don't have that time other people do. What? Other people? No, no, wait,
Unknown Speaker 54:13
I want to say that. I think first of all, I think governments all over the world. So just Uganda, generally. A deficient, right, unfortunately, in government operations to varying degrees. Exactly. But then what you see is, is, you know, in many countries, you know, you'll try to renew your license or whatever, unfortunately, takes a long time. Now, I'm not saying it's justifiable, but it does. It is the same pretty much over the world. Some things work, some things don't. Right. But then going back to your question about I think it's more around, you know, other systems forcing people to want to pay bribes. Unfortunately, yes. So I mean, I need to renew my passport soon. Right. And I know this is something I have to do because it's the black one in the blue one and everyday I drove by the Ministry of Internal Affairs, I asked myself heal the queue. And I've kept pushing this pushing this because I think I want to do it the right way. And it's just, it's, it's a can't even imagine that process. So it's the same thing when when a cop stops me, and tells me, you know, you have this problem, and I put a value to it, okay? It this problem could be 100,000 or could be 10,000. Now, this does it make me morally wrong in every way? Because I am I am participating in this corruption. And many times I keep saying, you know, the Serenity Prayer because probably nutcase, I wouldn't change it. But the process, I mean, there's a, there's a way out, and it it's that option that we've accepted, is it right? No, it's not. Do we do it?
Melanie 55:55
But you see that question of acceptance come brings back to the thing. Is it a necessary evil now, as we saw down the rabbit hole, that we're just like, fuck, we're done. Let's just work with it. Because literally, that's what we're doing every day. Because I said, I don't like everything. First thing I did, I'm not gonna, I wish
Unknown Speaker 56:15
in a country where, unfortunately, the systems are failing. In a country where there is a failure to distribute resources to the people that need them. Unfortunately, corruption will crop up as a way to get these things done. Right. Is it right? No, it is not. Is it necessary? It's a great, it's a gray area. On the other hand, I think there's the issue of greed that we really went into, I think, for me, that greed, that stealing from children and all this is just is absolutely wrong, should not happen. They should be they should be shot, you know, do what China did, and have a very straight punitive stance on what happened to change it. Yeah. But is it going to change soon? Unfortunately, I don't think so.
Unknown Speaker 57:03
Right now, in a country where basic human dignity is a luxury. People who want to live in dignity have no choice, but to participate in corruption. If going to pick a passport, means I must stand in the sun for 12 hours. Because the system is designed that standing in the sun for 12 hours is a benchmark, it's acceptable. It's not an outlier. It's the main experience. It's the average. I went to get my son's passport. He was three years old. And they said, I couldn't pick it as his parent, even though his passport was attached to my file, without him being present.
Melanie 57:53
Without him being without him being present without him being present. Wow.
Unknown Speaker 57:58
I was like, there is no way I'm bringing my three year old. Just sit in the sun on wooden benches. For 12 hours. It's not happening. So I did what I do. I went to my old boys network, and I found out who amongst our old fan, expedite needs alumni Connect works. Yeah, at the Ministry of Internal Affairs. And I was like, Listen, I have a window from 11 to 1130. Can you get me in? Like, wait, let me let me talk to the people. Like okay, they'll be able to walk on you on Thursday come in. Because I felt like I could not put my three year old through it. Imagine my shame. The day I came to pick it up. There was a woman crying with how one year old and she was trying to beg the scary to let her go out, buy milk and come back to her allotted space rather than back to the back of the line. That was how one request. So I was like, listen, where basic human dignity is off the table. If you want it, you want to dignity for yourself and now dignity is classified as a luxury. You have to pay a premium just for basic human dignity. And that's why corruption is so hard to weed out if you can't fix that the poorest of the poor has a certain rock bottom minimum below which minimum food minimum education minimum human you know comforts minimum shelter like Maslow's hierarchy of needs, the bottom the bottom of the pyramid, if you can't fix that, if even getting a square meal a day is now a luxury like the lucky few. And corruption becomes a way of life.
Melanie 59:45
So for me then it comes down to we can wax lyrical about how corruption is wrong. And it is the cause the effect the people to be blamed and stuff like that, but if some of the things we're doing to survive a system, a broken system, feed into the system, right? And perpetuate the bad practice of corruption. Do we have a right first of all you can say it's the nature of the beast, right? Do we have a right to complain?
Unknown Speaker 1:00:21
Yes. right to complain because our human dignity even though it's not being appreciated or or or honored, is inherent, like human rights. They can be abused. Yes. But their inherent they're given by God.
Unknown Speaker 1:00:36
Okay, okay, we should set a stance right? It's one of those where you you set a stance and say, you know, it is it is wrong. I will not do it. And you can individually say I will not do it. I will not pay bribes. I will just take that position. I won't do it. And you know, and
Melanie 1:00:56
the whole system like, ah, huh, so, you know what, guys, we're gonna leave it at this, but unfortunately, it's looking like is it a necessary evil?
Unknown Speaker 1:01:08
I don't think I don't think we I don't think any of us has to answer that question. I think you're
Unknown Speaker 1:01:16
not necessary. But we are we are we are.
Melanie 1:01:21
Thanks, guys, for having this conversation. And everyone listening. Thank you so much for listening to the podcast. Until next week, you have yourself Cheers. Bye
Transcribed by https://otter.ai