Even though the choice to not have children is typically frowned upon in Africa, a growing number of people are choosing NOT to have children, why? I am joined by Lenny Businge and Crystal Newman as we explore if people should or should not have kids. We also explore the other avenues of parenthood like Surrogacy and adoption and the prevalent attitudes towards these in our society
Hi, and welcome to EMS view. And this is the podcast that tries to get into anything and everything that you have on your mind. My name is Melanie. And I'll be letting you know in a bit how to get in touch with us we Facebook, media and different types of media giving us feedback, letting us know what you think about whatever topics we're getting into. And without further ado, I need to introduce my guests today. And my first guest is Lenny Lenny Bissinger. He is a lawyer. Now I have been warned by both of them not to just delve into a hold CV and resume there's but he's a lawyer. He's a father and he's a man, if that makes sense. But let's go with that. I'm just simplifying this so that everyone is happy, and I don't go to everyone CV and my next guest is crystal Newman. Angie is as he does about to overdo this, but I realized I don't want to do this. Okay, Angie is and he has done lots. And he's a media maven, kind of, I'm using this one for you.
Oh my goodness, media maven.
Thank you. But that's where we go in. That's where we are. Yes, this is where we see you. And she's a mom. And she does lots and lots of things, post them do loads and loads of things. So, by the way, guys, thank you so much for taking the time to do this. So now today, this time, we're talking about the idea of children, and having children or not having children. Now, I understand that in our setting, especially in the Ugandan setting. And in the African setting. It's almost a rite of passage, you're born, you go to school, you get a job, you have kids, you raise the kids, then you die. And hopefully your kids live live after you
just one step which is you get married, then you have the children. But
what did we post a pose? Oh, yes, we have. Now now parents are willing to look the other way. If you don't really get married, have the kids properly look after them. They'll forgive you not getting married. So now for me the question is, is it a given that we should have children, right, because I realized that now African setting it now Ugandan setting, everyone is invested in having children, and not just having children, but having children and raising them well, and then being and then being good citizens of the country. I like this about the African setting, though, I definitely like we are very invested in raising proper human beings. Tradition says that, but then I'm also aware that there are some people right now that are opting out and saying, Look, we will go through every rite of passage in terms of adulthood, but will who will not do the kids? Right. So I'm going to start with you, Lenny, Lenny, what's your take? Should we as a default as human beings as long as we're able bodied and healthy and able to do? Should we always have children?
Absolutely. Why not? Okay, why? When you think about it, you and I are here because parents decided, You know what, let's jump on board. Let's get the children but also, interest in interest or self self preservation, have kids we must keep the lineage going. The world is more fun place with little kids, you know, each of us are better when you know you have someone else who's going to carry on your legacy. They also give you a reason to you know, to keep going. I keep hearing give a reason to you know, stay awake at night. You're thinking I need to get that command because
so your kids are the reason you work hard. Yeah, yeah. Really? Yeah. Okay. Okay. Interesting. Okay, okay. Keep
me going like that days. Wake up. And I honestly do not even want to get out of bed as I'm there. snoozing alarm after the other kid here? No. condado daddy, like Yeah, it's time.
Okay, let me adult let me be a parent. Yep. big boy pants. So you don't understand people opting out?
Not that I don't understand them. It's just I do not agree with them. Why? Because I feel like if you're able to now there's people who you know are unable to and you know, that's a whole other discussion. But if we able to and then you know, choose not to why, you know, like I can understand someone in Cairo moja or you know, deep down in some slum or things are really tight. Okay. But but if you're able to, you know, you have some company like for example, Crystal said, you know, I didn't want to have to do that Same thing good. No, but honestly, I would encourage people to have children because that is just a way it, at least from my from, from my perspective, it focuses you, it gives you perspective. It gives you a reason to push the extra mile not just in terms of work, but even as a better person, like the things I want to do. Like, you know, slap that random Bodega that cuts across me, I'm like, I'm my kids. You know? Like, I just feel like there's a lot of ups upside to it. Okay.
So, so let me ask you a question. Those kinds of things like getting up to work having a reason to live. behaving well, in traffic. You can't do that without kids.
Well, I did before that I found that I'm a much better person. Okay. I have children. And that's not to say that, okay, the only good people that exist in this world, and those that have kids. No, no, no, absolutely not. But it's just that ever since I got my kids in my life. Yeah, my focus has been, you know, much, much better. Okay. I found that the decisions that I could have taken out of selfish interests that have ended up not taking Okay, for their own good. Okay. So I found so I just think that, for example, were discussing earlier about, you know, kids being in school and whatnot. Every right thinking parent would want their kids to be in school would want the best photos. Yes. So if all if a bigger majority of us had kids, and we're raising them, right, we'd be better citizens, because you'd want to live a better universe for those that are coming after us.
Okay, you okay, I kind of get you on that. But let me first before I get into a challenge into that. Let's go crystal, what do you think should we be having? Should we definitely have children? If we can?
Well, I know my point of view is very controversial. Because I am a mom of three. I share that very openly. I'm a proud mother. But Absolutely not. Absolutely not. It's a choice. And everyone should have a right to choose. You see, before I had children before I got married, I never thought I would have children or get married. That surprises a lot of people. Because I think I'm very maternal, even the people with Yeah, I'm like a mama bear. I'm always like, you know, pushing people,
like not crystal taught me almost everything
about radio. But anyway, um, yeah. So I, when I was younger, I didn't think I'd have children. It was more my career, I was focused on my career and what I wanted to do, and then I was blessed to have children, I was blessed to meet someone get married, and, you know, take on that journey in life. But the thing about parenting is, it was a choice for me. Because with everything we do in life, you must commit, unlike there are too many people who find themselves in different situations, and they barely commit, you're just coasting through life. And the worst thing you can ever do is bring human beings into the world. And you're just coasting. Because selfish people will still be selfish even after they have children. Sure. Now, yes, for some people, it changes them completely. One of my friends her mom said how because I was so career oriented. Back then she was like how when Krystal has children. She's just going to give them to her mother or someone else to raise and then she saw me with my kids. And she's like, Oh, my goodness, you are such a hands on mom. And I'm a strict mom. By the way. A lot of people don't know that I'm I play with my my kids. We're friends, but I'm a mom before my friend. I don't understand people like Oh, my child is my best friend. People. We can do have friends your own age. Someone you're going to marry real ish, when you're going to put a lot on that person's shoulders. You can put that on your child's shoulder. So this nonsense on my children are my friend. My children are my best friends. I was lucky. What do you mean, your child is supposed to be a child take your adult things elsewhere. But on a serious note, I feel like it's a choice. Even when I was listening to you, Lenny the whole time you were saying, My children, my decisions to wake up in the morning. These are things that you want to do. And chances are you wanted to have children. Now there are people who are have so many issues. Let's talk about the ones who are selfish. Yeah, yeah. Children come into the picture still Me Me, me, me. And that's also the message the world especially the western world right now. Everything is me, me, me, me, me. Self love me time two. And a whole generation of people raising children and they're not present. they're not engaged, because the thing is, being a parent is hard, hard work. Now Melanie knows this. So many of the young men and women I've talked to over the years when they talk about having children, I always say, take your time. Take your time, because once you go there, there is no going back. And the thing is there still people have children, and they move on. They do not know how many people pass on the responsibility of raising children to either their parents. Yeah, which is so unfair. I mean, your parents raised raised you they're done. But grandparents are raising children. aunties and uncles are raising children. And in the world today, because people are me, me, me, me, me, my time I want to go out, I want to travel, I want to do all these things. They leave their kids at home. So kids are being raised by the workers at home, the house helps at home, they're being raised by television. Well, we were kind of raised by television, but more importantly, now the internet and social media, they are raising children, because people are inherently selfish. So if you're going to have children, you must commit to being there to being present to following up to being tough. And like Melanie said, as African culture, raising a responsible human being who is a value to society, someone who is you're proud to bring into the world. Not everyone is equipped for that there are people who are traumatized, there are people who have issues. We I mean, the most important thing you can have in life, I feel is self awareness. Right? You have to know who you are. You have to know what your weaknesses are. And there are many people who are like, You know what, I can't raise a child look at Oprah. Here. I'm like, No, and I'm a mom, I love children. I think they're the greatest gift. But it's my choice. I have decided on that. Because at the end of it, let me say something letting you know, we talk about lineage. And we talk about, you know, austerity, love the legacy. But if we're going to be very honest, apart from families that maybe build a wealth, and build some kind of legacy in that kind of way to three generations down, you're forgotten, unless you're the people who are I don't know, leaders, the Nelson Mandela's you know, the Gandhi's. You know, life goes on you die, even the people who love you after three, five years, they move on? Yeah, but
but but in there still, I've got just to give a little bit about Chase, I hear you you make make a valid point that people should choose. And yes, people should choose. But at the end of the day, a big number of us are this in our Ugandan context, a big number of us have not that self aware, you know, sit down and you know, think and assess. And you know, what, what?
That isn't, yes, we have so many children who are lost, who are not being raised and taken care of and love.
Yes, but our country is built on so many stories like that, that have risen through those ashes, you understand? So the ideal situation really is yeah, you know, to two individuals, he doesn't here's the plan to follow, we're gonna have kids and at this time, you know, we'll have so many kids, but what
if you don't find that person? So you already talked about the fact that you meet someone, and then you can make that choice together? For many people? That doesn't happen?
Yes. And even though that the window, the perfect situation does not exist, I still think that if the opportunity then arises, human, accidental kids and whatnot. I'm sure if we dug up our histories, you may find that one or two of us. Just lucky that our parents chose to keep us on.
I think a huge
we exactly. I mean, here we are, you know,
again, was a choice, though, but you're talking about people choosing Yes. And in a perfect scenario, because he happens so much pressure, you see, and there's so much pressure to take on to you know, to tick off this list, that so many people are bitter, are unhappy. And if you are bitter, unhappy, you pass that on to your children. If you are happy and peaceful and fulfilled, you pass that on to your children. I mean, in terms of some of the shows I've done, where I talk about violence against children, we talk about the cycle of violence and how so much has to go into breaking that cycle because of parents who are frustrated, who are miserable, who are angry from so many things. And they take it out on their kids, but the kids grow up and they take it out in the next generation. What I'm saying is it should be a choice as in some people if you want to have children, beautiful, have them. If you don't want to have children. That is fine, too. I met a couple who really actually change this for me when I had gone for the Mrs. World contest. I competed I met so many misses from other countries. And I think it was Mrs. Korea. Now Mrs. Singapore, she and her husband, she was about 50. At the time, she and her husband decided not have children. And what they do is they travel the world, they engage in so many other things, they hit charities they have, they sponsor children, they foster children, but they decided not for any reason, like they can't have, but they decided what they wanted. If you want to travel the world, that should be fine. It's a problem when you want to travel the world all the time, but you have children who are constantly left behind, and then you're not in their lives, you see. So again, if you're going to commit, you have to commit fully,
I hear you but sometimes, and really, in our, in our African setting, you find that many of these choices, find us along the way, you know, in the sense that you have the child and the plan comes, we're pregnant. Alright, let's, let's see how that goes. You know, let's get through these nine months, and then you get through the nine months, then the kids kid is born, then when they turn four years, can start school, alright, let's let's come up with a school plan off the cuff on the go. But But in that unpredictability lies, so many stories that are worked out and have gone on to become such success stories. And my argument is that whereas Yes, there is a case to be made strong case to be made that, you know, people who shouldn't have children shouldn't have it, okay, shouldn't have people
who don't want children who don't want I'm talking about people who don't want children should not have children. They're also people who are amazing aunties and uncles. And godparents. And they are fantastic at that. But they can send the children back to their parents at the end of the day, when they come away. With that, but even in our society, and we see this we have in our like, you know, we see so many couples who every single evening out, and I'm having some very, very harsh conversations around parenting of late, I'm talking to many people, and they look at me like, because, you know, it's, like, too bad.
Yeah, but
a lot of people are choosing to live their lives as though they're single, and they're not parents, yet they are you see, and what you are doing is you're damaging, You're damaging your children, and you're passing on a pattern of behavior that they will continue.
Yes, but that that that's still that's still positive in my book, because not that that should be parting and the fact that they have the kids, okay. And yes, it's not it's not an idea sort of perfect world. Okay, so each and every one of us should be better at this parenting thing. Terrible, yes.
I just struggle is not easy. There are no rules of figuring it out as you go along. But there's some people who just don't try at all. So if you did not want to have children, and you did, and it's been hard for you, when it comes to the next generation of someone who's young, who does not want to have children. Why can't they choose not to?
I hear you. But my my worry is, once we once we go down that road, you know, where it ends? Where does it end? It ends and it ends in, you know, this critical mass gathering, this is going to say, you know, what, the end of the day? What is the point of them kids anyway? Because that's how all these movements start. So you're
saying, Okay, so now off the top of my head, when he says that off the top of my head, I can think of what's happening in South Korea now. And also, because I know China is having an issue of people, they reversed your one child policy to lay people like, we're not going to have Japan as
well. They have the oldest population, just not having it. But then
now you have some but South Korea, they're like, Nope, we're done. We don't ever have children in
Japan. So women who have decided not
to but you see, I think for me, to be honest, those are extreme polls, what we're asking for, and for me personally, even though my personal choice is not to have children, I am of the view people should have that choice because as long as you open up the idea that people have a choice, the ones that want to have children will have children, the ones that don't want to have children will not have children, which means you have better parents because it's intentional. There is real desire, right? And then these are the ones will be productive and doing other things. I want us to explore this idea that that it doesn't take away from you being a productive adult. If you do not have children.
I have to agree with you 100% I have have a feeling you can be a parent and be a lazy bum. We see this all the time. I mean, I cannot stand people have children and like they put their hands on and I'm sorry, but God will provide meaning my relatives, my brothers, my sisters, other people will take care of my kids usually have like six events. Keep having children every year, and you're like, What is wrong with you? Have you not heard of family planning and birth control? You know, so I absolutely agree you can have the best work ethic and it's about you. It's about how you were raised. It's about the kind of lifestyle you want it the kind of impact you want to have on the world. There's so many things that can push you to work hard, and it's not just
Yes. And again, I understand this whole idea. People say Oh, legacy and stuff like that. But your your legacy can live past your loins. I'm gonna say that it can, because people now we're talking about legacy. And again, in Uganda, in Africa, we need to start thinking about this things. Legacy is in your workplaces, in your government is in your community. It's the things you live that live after you they can be a little more than biological children. Right? Well, when we as Africans, as Ugandan start to take pride in our work in our communities. When that happens, then we will stop putting pressure on sarenne Chew on on producing children.
I think, though, maybe maybe to your point, Melanie, I find that many of us who are pro kids, for example, approach kids for the wrong reasons. Okay, you might find that motivation is, you know, selfishness, but you know, I want to have 10 little ladies running around because that shows I'm the boss, man.
Yes, oh, it's just a genuine fear of judgment, which is real, you know, you can't be the one who doesn't want to have kids. You can't be the one who people think is is barren or important. But but if we if we get back, if we can strip away that, that, you know, those those narratives and just get to the real real, you know, meat? Yeah. Why do you actually want to have children? I feel like if we can have that debate, then we might find ourselves, you know, coming to agree with with crystal a little bit and say, No, I won't have kids, because I genuinely want to have kids, I want to, you know, extend my legacy. Don't leave something behind. My kids take on the things that you know, some of the projects have been doing to extend our business or extend, you know, the initiatives that we're starting, maybe I want to leave my legacy through my kids in the world. And I think that should be okay.
Now that it's absolutely okay. Again, I think Melanie and I are just trying to say it should be a choice. And they should be less judgement if you choose not to. I think that's the main thing. I remember talking to a lady who's in her 50s. And she was telling me why she never had kids. Because in her family, they have such a strong history of mental illness. So many members in the family had committed suicide, she has dealt with depression. And
by bipolar it, yes. Yeah, bipolar,
bipolar, and so many other things. And she said, once, by the time, she was like, 25, and she really sat down, and she realized for the rest of her life, she has to be on treatment. Sometimes she cannot function at all. I mean, she looked at her aunties and uncles and what it had done to her family, she made a choice then and there that she was not going to bring a child into the world, who would have to number one deal with her and her issues, but she might actually pass that on as well. And a lot of us, especially African society, we don't ever think about, yeah, it should be a requirement for couples to first go test and find out your background. Yeah, you know, the, you know, mechanical cells are more than passive. Yeah, then just that right. But a lot of us don't do that. But again, it should be a choice, because if you know, you're going to be a terrible parent, again, most of us know, we know. We know.
I personally, I can't picture myself being parent, I have tried, and if you can't, and you shouldn't be last week, I had a trial run with my nieces. I looked at them and said, God by day, I was like, I love you because of your parents. And I love them, but I can't have them on a full time basis. Right? But then it's it has an you know, for me because and it's been a hybridity because I have I am born bred in Uganda, and then I've lived between Uganda and Canada. I have always had the, for the longest time there was that guilt of trying to say, maybe I'm not being realistic. Maybe I'm being selfish. Maybe I'm being selfish, maybe selfish. But by the time I was 35, I was like, deuces, man. I'm out. We're doing, we're not having children. But my problem was that I had no problem. My reality was that for as far back as I can remember, when my friends were playing mummy and daddy, I didn't want to know, I was with helicopters and chasing the cars. I'm like, I don't want to play mommy and daddy. And this father was my I don't want to play me and daddy. The boy dolls and I didn't want to, and have not never been the person who pictured myself being a parent. I've never pictured myself being a parent. However, I'm one of those people who's saying, now I'm even as gone as far said, I don't want to be a parent. But should I change my mind? I should be able to exercise that change. So if I change my mind, I said, Now, if I get to, it's a window period. And this is personal to me. I said, Look, until I'm 45. That window is open. Right? I can choose between No, we're not doing biological pushing things that is not happening. I did a census was an enumerator and this was I must have been 19 or 20 years old, and I was the I was stationed in Mulago. And I think it was Mulago. The other word were that is less bougie. And the old ladies walking around with blood, like dripping down their legs, and I was horrified. I was like, How does someone willingly take their body through this? And of course, then I said now and now I resented the idea that biology pill plays a trick on us. We women, yes, we push the and then it tricks us to forget this pain, and then tricks us again to want another one. And then she just forgets. And she does it. And I'm like, oh, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, we're not doing this. Like, I'm not playing this games biology. Like, we're not doing this, like you're not gonna trick me into having if you have to trick me into having that means is trauma. That means and people don't understand it. But every time I see a woman, either about to give birth or giving birth, whether it's movies, whether it's in real life, I literally like I'm just like, how, how how? And yet still, I can't take away from the fact that kids are amazing and stuff like that. But I do I want to take my body through this. No, thank
you. I remember having this conversation with you many years ago. And since we've been close, I would tell her my drama, my stories and my issues about my kids. And sometimes she'll just look at me with her eyes wide open, like, how are you dealing with it. But even back then I was like, you know, I take your time. And I say this to young people to the people I mentor, I'm like, take your time, you would rather be older and want your children than younger and you've got them and you're just frustrated. And you don't know what happens. Because the time goes by really fast. You have a 15 year old who is a stranger who resents you can't stand you because you've made so many mistakes along the way. And so many women who have decided to take that time, actually go on and have children, I have so many friends, we're having children in their 40s. Now, yeah, they've changed their mind. They've traveled the world, maybe they've made money, they set personal goals, financial goals, because they're the it's only a lucky few who are able to hit all these financial targets with children. That's, I mean, use anyone to do this, I want to do that when
you can have
the money to buy milk.
You're trying to turn one more time, then you remember, there's a knock on the door milk, and
you're like, I wanted to buy bricks, but we've run out of gas.
But can I can I also say this that and this was a reality. It was a word of caution. And this was as we as far back as before I just turned 30 My dad used to look at me every year and go like kids. No. He said he'd say he because no he knows me and personalities. He understands you don't tell me ask. So so he says I didn't. Like we're running out of time, aren't we? Right? And I didn't feel it. But I knew I understood where he was coming from. Right. So I said your clock Okay. As far as you're concerned, I'm running out of time. And then by time I was 35. It's like it's too late. I did you do what you want. It's fine. However, it even though I don't subscribe to that sort. I had to think of a bit and say look, when is not advisable that I'm not allowed to even if I change my mind. Like I keep on saying as much as I want. I reserve the right to change my mind at 50 but having my first child
imagine you're 60 years old and you're running around I mean reality for many people, some of our friends, their mothers in their 50s were like, and they they've been raised.
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but you see, here's the thing. I also think this conversation also revolves around not just giving birth to your own children, but you can adopt Yes, you can adopt. So if you're 45, and maybe you can have a child of your own, you can adopt that is still having children. That's amazing. However, what is going to give birth? The body goes.
But you know, I keep on saying for that, and to go back to this and then go into what you're talking about in terms of adoption and on on options, right? Even though and I said the reason as to why I will not have children around 50 is not because I can't biological even if I biologically could, it's that it's a very selfish thing. Because you're thinking, why am I giving my child my middle to later years? Right? I need to have given like, honestly, I keep on telling people if I'd wanted kids, I'd Papa much 20.
But here's the thing about Russia. Just talk about the double standards because a man at 70 who has a child people like hey what's wrong with
me? But you do realize some okay, yes, there is that bias, but it's about the body the beating sex, who takes the responsibility.
Like the older you are, the more likely you are to die, let's just be it's true, it's less likely that their kids are going to at least make it University and you're allowed.
So that's I said, that's why it becomes a bit but then when it comes to things like now there are all these options that are up there are open to us. Thank you science and just culturally opening up there is adoption. There is IVF. You can use your eggs, there is surrogacy and all those things are obviously money. If you have a lot of money. Yes, no. But now, our attitude to other things. And again, I'd like to ask both of you. Are we more open these days to adoption? IVF surrogacy? Is that a thing?
Because I know so many people have you do so many people have done a
growing number, but they're still doing it. Like under the table? Because they still that stigma? Especially the surrogacy Yes. Especially with the surrogacy because, you know,
I think it's selfish wise, it's
selfish. It's it's a poser thing of a you don't have you and carry a child What's wrong with you? Oh, then from you know, the judgment that comes from the women that have courage, children, look at you like you're not woman enough.
judgment. Judgment, I mean, for those cases, Ariens. What's your problem? The baby is here. But I mean, there will always be that judgment, which is why we need to have more conversations that are open and honest. And thankfully, I think we are getting there. But there's also the fact that this only applies to a tiny percentage all around the world
can afford a wealthy you
have those
like the going rate of surrogacy are looking at about 80 Male above how many people can afford? You see, so even if biologically you're not able to carry a child and you genuinely want to that the commodity male,
but I think as long as we remember that you can change your mind. Again, it takes you two choices, you should be able to choose not to and if you change your mind, I will say again, adoption is one of the most beautiful things he some people are for it, some people are against it, but it's such a beautiful, beautiful thing.
Now for me, I think no adoption, and I was telling me this earlier on and and and it's funny because I was having this conversation with my mom, because now I think my parents have reached the point where they're like, well,
now I think the next best thing we know some agents.
Yeah, it's okay. Not through you. Okay, fine. So now they're talking to me about they're like, hey, so adoption and stuff. And I remember having this conversation, my mom and I said, You know what, Mom? I'm open to adoption, but I always have this fear that I'll adopt a child love this child and then the child will have or manifest characteristics. I have no reference for like this child at all, because genetically, they are not there because they come from a totally different gene pool, but I do not know No, Wolf, I am not conversant with certain things, proclivities behaviors. I'll say things like I said it. And then you look at this child, and you're like, you know, like, I don't know, like someone did. It was like, What do you mean? Is it now adopted? You're not allowed to say, what you see, I'm done with political correctness, this might come down and bite me in, you know, where 10 years from now. But I am going to have to say that like for me, because the things that you valued you value, a child that's expressive you value a child that is, is has a bit of a good head on their shoulders, you value a child who's and then and I'm not saying other children that are different are not, but they're not your thing. And then the adoption process does not screen for those things. So you're like,
I think that's why you have the people who are like, No, adoption is not for me, if I'm ever going to have a child, it has to be like I have it my grandmother's. My grandmother's hands, you know, how it works? Like, you know, the other answer? I don't know. Yes. But I mean, at the end of the day, I think when it comes to adoption, most people who adopt the really, yes, really want a child want a child? Yes. And they'll take the child to trial, whichever they have met a child foster child and fallen in love with that child. But the point is, the option is still open.
Maybe Maybe if I can you know where my judgey parent once you've got this child like you take them with which we have imperfections or? Yeah, like there's, there's no perfect here. Yeah.
I'm giving you a way I am done.
Because because they're your own. And you know, to borrow Chris's choice what choice you've chosen this child. So because you've chosen them, you you take them with every you know, imperfection, disabled if they are, you know, academically challenged, they could be academically challenged and uniquely talented in a different area.
Yes.
About parenting because Parenting is hard, hard work. I mean, we talk about relationships being hard work, but parenting is even harder, because you are literally molding this clay and grooming this human being, of course, you there's no perfect way of going about it, things can still go sideways, I mean, if you do the best that you can. But at the end of the day, there's there's so much work that goes into also trying to identify your child's strengths, trying to find the best course of action, trying to accept the things that you don't agree with
and understand. Yes, that's the things that are complete.
Not to ask from someone who does not want to have children.
No, but Okay, fine. But what's now you know, like to use Melanie's example, you've now adopted this child, and then they're manifesting, like, Oh, my goodness, what do I do with this? Like, that's, that's not a parent. That's part of it. And I believe that's actually the fun part. Because now at that point, the script goes out the window you make now Oh, my gosh, oh, you know, my dear, we're going to figure this stuff out, like you and I. And I feel like for me, that makes it all worthwhile. Although what's the process
for you is, because when you're thinking is a challenge people should take on,
I would encourage them to take it on. Because I can only share from my experience, like, for me becoming a dad has been the making of me, I can't profess to be world's greatest dad, definitely have the mug. But I can't profess that because I make so many mistakes. Because as I learn from my mistakes, I'm also seeing my child, you know, respond to me. And you know, and we're figuring this stuff out together. I think that that makes it that makes it like it's something I wish for everyone.
So in order to come to your point, and it's funny, because someone was telling me, Melanie, you need to be a parent, when you'd make an excellent mom is like, No, I wouldn't make an excellent one. I said I wouldn't, because I don't want to that's a bad like, for me, it's important to want something then I will if I change my mind, then I'll make an excellent, best believe I'll make an excellent parent. But until the point or if I never, then it's not going to happen. But when it came, and I thought give us a thought process because this person said, You know what? You grow and mature in ways you didn't think were possible. I remember resenting that I remember my dad calling and presenting. And I and I didn't understand why until I thought about it. And it took me months to find out why it rubbed me the wrong way. Because I realized that as much as I recognize that being a parent gives the opportunity to grow in ways that are unique to being a parent being Single remaining without children, also gives you opportunity to grow in ways that a parent would never understand. Right? It's just a unique form of growth for both. But both of them are viable and correct. And should be respected as such, right. So whether I choose to have children or not have children, both, I can still be a functional adult, like, I don't like, you know, like the times I'm on Facebook and stuff. And every time I do a post about not having kids or not wanting
kids, oh, they actually need
lots of reaction.
But then who are you? How dare
you? Yeah. But over the years, though, I find because in my little bubble of my friends, people have now kind of like, okay, accepted, but every time there's a post the floods of women in my inbox saying mail, please tell us if we made this choice. It's very, very hard. I can't get this promotion in Uganda, because people think I'm not responsible. And I was like, what? I'm like, I don't have children. And I'm like, oh, so it qualifies. You
heard also from young men that, you know, if they aren't in a serious relationship, or they don't get married, they also not considered to be very responsible, not as much as women. Yes. Woman, yeah, if you can be married and run a home and have children, yes, then you can do so much more. But I was thinking about what you were saying, linear, but how like, you know, your children are this gift, and you know, they've brought out the best in you. And I tend to be a mom of three. But I'm pro choice. I'm like, You know what you should choose. I also feel that as parents, and this is a very tricky balance, much as I'm saying, as a parent, you must be present, you must be involved, you must be engaged, you must also show your children, that you are your own unique person with your own gifts and your own accomplishments. And I feel, especially for women, not so much for men, it's something that we have to talk about again, and again. Because having children means sacrifice, a lot of sacrifice, and you don't want people to make sacrifices, and then they're resentful. Because who's the object of the resentment? It's actually the children. So you have to make so many sacrifices, but you want to live your life, you want to be fulfilled, you want to do so many different things. And you again, have to figure out that balance, where you can still be able to be the best version of yourself, but it's not because of your children. You want your children to look at you and be like, Wow, my mom, my dad was gifted, they were driven, they were able to do this and do that and do the other away from identity pairing was about Yes, because there's also that very spoiled generation of children being raised where they believe the entire world. And that starts in the home. It starts with the parents as well. Again, this whole parenting thing is
so hot. So I think you'll figure out this one area realize this 90% That just,
exactly. I'm going to ask this.
No, it's the most beautiful thing. I love being a mom, I love being a parent. But like I've said before, I am all about discipline, I am so strict. Sometimes people like really, like, you know what, when these kids grow up, and they leave home, I'm not going to be there.
But But speaking of up to four female dating about earlier, I find that many times, many of us are in, you know, different aspects of this divide where those of us who have kids, but unhappy because we have these kids, and they and you know, we sort of you know, wish we didn't have these kids. And they got a deal. And then there are those people who you know, don't have kids, and they desperately want them. We're resenting each other across the divide. So you find the Muslims, the exchanges that have we have is media, on these DBMS chains are mostly
two sides, especially like what you were saying anyone you're like, you know what, I don't want to have chills, and then people are like how have struggled and I'm struggling? They look at you like how are you
happy? Because but you see, I'm aware of that, right? But the reason I'm I think primarily the reason my work I'm vocal about it is because I literally want people to start opening themselves up to the choice, because people need to ask themselves if they really want to have kids, because when you say I want to have a child, you're just the better parent. If you don't want to have that child, you're gonna have acid for a bit, and sometimes you will sometimes yeah, sometimes you'll figure it out. Sometimes you never figure it out. Because deep down inside, you will not read you don't want to have those kids. And it's I mean, it's the power of choice of not just saying don't have kids wanna have kids, when do you want to have kids? How many kids do you want to have? I'm going to say this and I may get stones thrown at me but I told people if I like on this property if it happens and by accident I said accident like
you Controlling the narrative.
I'll give it to,
you know, many of the women who are parents and they never wanted to be parents. It happened because they did not consciously make the choice.
Okay, go ahead, friends
of mine good friends. One good night to the both the loves of each other's lives, okay, but they got married and the guy genuinely wanted to have kids. Okay, so he's figured, yes. Good Christian boy, I've done the right thing. It's time. He gets in. He gets into the marriage. And the wife is like, what are you talking about?
They didn't have this conversation.
Apparently did. Apparently they in passing, but both of them thought the other was not changed. Either would change their mind. So the longer they stayed married, the more she doubled down on her position of actually, the longer they do this new and get his they're thinking I'm working. I'm working surely issues of him. Long story short, then our divorce. And I have this other friend of mine. They got married. This guy figured you know, we're married. We probably take our time when this kids thing. She's like, you know, good Christian gouts when how my day one we are starting. So they he managed to convince her for like to hold her for like seven months. And then you know, finally she conceived she's ecstatic over the moon. Yeah. And he's like, what they have to read is they have two kids now. And he still he still make statements like, my wife dropped me. Ha ha, ha. I
feel like my heart just
broke a little bit. But a lot of guys think that but women because women don't have the kid.
Click My marriage
is like, awful if if possible. Because again, sometimes God has his own plans. And you may think you have yours. And he's like, that's true. But but all people should, if possible, get married and enjoy each other. For years. I know there's pressure here. They're like, as soon as you get my bag. We're waiting grandchildren, when but you should be able to enjoy each other for quite some time. And and then that's how you will know. Yes, exactly.
So this conversation of kids or not kids like it's so nuanced. Because even when you're there, when how often how often
do we say the converse conversation that you have to have with your partner, or your partner? It's funny, because when you say that, in my mind, I was thinking, I have a cousin. I'll bet they live overseas. But they got married at 20. We're all in shock. Why? How so young how so young. These guys, people are simply having kids when they're having kids, when you have kids, when you have kids for 10 years, they stepped out of the like, we will not have children until we're ready. And it was funny because the irony was at first people were like, how could you get married so young. Then thereafter the pressure was have children. Yeah, where the children and these guys stick this off the family for 10 years, like look when we are ready. So they move from one expensive part of the country to another. It was literally of their lives, their lives went on holidays did this, but they were 20. And then by the time when they were 30. It was one child than another. So it was very intentional. And so you see for them it's been an I realized that that that exercising of choice is very, very, very, very important. Because if right now and I remember by the time they were 30 we had given up
yeah, of course because
when when
those family conversations were like, they may be struggling. Maybe there's some things they can talk about
when when they decided to they had Emily, Oh, you guys wanted children the whole time the whole day. She was there and I realized for it because the cousin is the lady's the cousin was my cousin. I watched kudos to you, man. Like you staved us off for 10 years
good for them. But you know, here in our in our scenario is so surreal because like I remember when I got married my wife and I decided for the first year when having kids doing the whole took a page of Chris's book of No, no, we're gonna enjoy ourselves. My periods not read that's when when I got married, I was finally relatively young. I was 27. So they figured she stopped me because she's pregnant. So two months later, they're like so six months later, they're like, Okay, so we've, we've confirmed she has it, but now Why isn't she and we had such huge debates with my with my parents, so why what's wrong with you? So my wife didn't grow up here. So she's kind of speaks funny sort of like crystal kind of speaks funny.
Oh, wow. Thank you so much.
So that Ignace she's that Muslim girl. confused you she's putting the wrong ideas in your mind. Like was like it took a lot of strength on our part. Yeah, you know, because I remember one time we would visit my mom, I didn't go with her that time, she took me aside and said I could if she did want, there are ways there are other avenues that are open to I have heard these people. My mom is a leader in a church.
And that is terrible. She does not care about the health of your relationship or your marriage. She just wanted a grant. Yes,
the pressure is real. So sometimes you find people who have ended up having kids just for the sake of I need to take this box because
what do I feel like you're coming over to us?
No, no, I'm still,
like, let's, let's have children,
I'm just saying you need to understand us on this session.
I feel like you know, again, it should be a choice, you can take your time, you should be allowed to take your time, it should be less judgment from others. But if and when you choose to change your mind, then you will enjoy the beauty of being a parent
I for 1am eating. And when either one I'm thinking, especially in the Ugandan setting, I think people need to explore the possibility that they should not have children that they need, like you need to sit down and say, What does my life look like without kids? Am I happy with it? And then be honest, if it's a yes, I do want to have kids, right? Because I don't I tell people that I don't always see eye to eye to some of my my nice little shits are running around. I don't feel my womb move. Like that's,
like, listening. I found myself in one said game a couple of years ago, and I was like, I'm done. I have my dream. And I was in the baby section. And I was like, Oh my God, look at this level. And I had a crystal stomach. You see, that's the thing
that I have had those moments.
Who does not touch people's babies because kids are grown? Because there's something about the smell of a newborn triggers something in you as a woman is something biological. That one is this smell makes on yours. Yeah, as long as you know, you're still healthy. And first of all, that socially like Oh, beautiful baby, I will touch it. When it's a year old, a limiter
loose and it's walking, I was standing like babies don't gravitate towards me. That's just a fact. I'm very, very, very, very open. And happy about that. Because I think I'm like, look, there was one time standing behind this couple, right? And I was in a supermarket. And this child looks at me and goes, stitches, your hands up to me because something
you felt it right. So
I was like, and in my mind, I was like No, but
you may get into every urge and every impulse
cue that you just because your biology and that thing you feel your biology moving and your hormones moving doesn't mean you're, you're supposed to be a parent then because it's like this child, and I'm telling you, for the child, and the parent, and the parents was so nice, they turn around, and they're like, Oh, and this child is raising that talk to like, hug me pick me. I pick a child, the child put their arms around me and I'm like, Oh my God, my life is over. What is going on? What is good? And literally, I remember that night I went back home to the core. I was confused for a whole week. And I remember that going back and asking myself well, I usually don't have kids. And but then I had to remind myself it's biology, right? It's biology and biology. Like not playing sometimes I say playing games on you. But biology your biology. Just because you can have a kid doesn't mean you have a kid we could have kids when some of us were 12 some 10 we had kids thank you yes guys could touch us. I'm like
but I mean you're not supposed to do
exactly and that's why I say it's a power of choice understanding that your body will say certain things men I know men feel the need to saya like to spread their oats legacy mess them with all
due respect. We see you sometimes a sentence or you see something and it's like he's left the building. Like they just smile because as women we see yeah, like I saying you have no control over it. Yes. Does that mean you're going to set following that person? And
that's all and honestly that's I'm saying like, just because you feel it doesn't mean you have to have it. But then when you are when your mind and your body and your heart and your spirit for those of you believe in that unison, when they agree, do it, if they don't check out of it did, there's no need to, there isn't. And when. And as it is for a lot of young women, right, a lot of young women feel pressure by society. I like I want to urge a lot of women. Practice, practice, practice, practice, practice the habit of listening to your own counsel and sticking by it from the small things that will lead to the bigger decisions from what you wear to what you do to how you dress, whatever. Once you practice that, then you practice the backbone to for the bigger decisions, like if you want to have children. And if you don't want to have children, when you want to have children with whom you want to have children with write, and be intentional about it. I told people that I am too. But I told myself, by the time I was 25 pregnancies not going to happen to me by accident, I said there are so many options. There's a huge, yes, ception, there is the morning after and then even after that there are other measures. So it was never going to happen to me by accident. But the ones and that's the thing, a woman who wants to have a child have it when you want men who want to have children have them when you want to have them and get together with like minded individuals. So please,
even if you want to have a child have a child when you can take care of
emotionally now,
because I can I take us back to as human beings, we're very selfish, there are people who are selfish, and they don't want children, then other people who are selfish because they're like, I don't want to be alone. Do you know many women are like, You know what, I don't want to be alone. So I'm going to have a child straight. That's very selfish, because you're not bringing this child into the world just to raise them. And these are the ones who like 30 years later, living in the house is not allowed to do anything that your mom is calling you five times a day, because this person she built her world around you. And that also is very selfish. So you have to also have children for the right reasons. Not because you know, there was a time single mothers were all in, let's be honest. My mom's a single mom. Yes. And they're single mothers who didn't choose it. But then there was this whole wave. And this whole craze of being a single mom is cool. Like, and I'm like, No, a child is not a handbag, they're not a little puppy. You know, this is a human being who will have expectations and emotions. And then also many of us are dealing with things emotionally, how many of us says you can go for counseling, even understand what our issues are, first, sort out your own personal issues before you bring another person into the world? There's so much that goes into it.
Okay, so we're about to close to this Leonard, your parting shots,
I think I think Crystal made one or two points. But I think at the end of that day, when we when we make the decision to have kids or not, we need to be able to live with those decisions. Because so many of us make the decisions or the decisions made for us. And then you know, we get to live and die with the consequences. I think that we need to if we're going to make the decision either way, we need to be able to you know, own up to the decision and live with the consequences because either way if you decide to have a child, then own that Ah man, like, step up, step the heck up sticker of those damn kids do whatever it takes. Okay? And then if you decide not to have kids, don't you know, lord it over the rest of us who do like all my groceries, so I'm cool. Your call for me? To make it like don't judge. Okay, just, I'll do my best.
Fair enough crystal
judgment. Both ways, right? Yes. More or less said my piece. I feel like everyone should have a choice. Being a mom, it's the best thing in the world. I love my children to death. But I also know it's a lot of hard work, a lot of commitment, a lot of sacrifice. And I'm very, very willing to do it. I hate the fact that there are so many children who are unwanted who were abused and neglected in the world. And that's because they were brought into the world with no plan and someone just said, Okay, fine, fine, I'll just do this. So, we need to take more responsibility of our choices. And that is one of the biggest choices we can make as human beings, responsibility of our actions and the consequences that come with our actions. But everyone should be free to choose what is best for them because at the end of the day, you are born alone you die. I alone and you live your life to the best that you can. As an individual, you can impact you can help you can, you know, do so many wonderful things for other people. But at the end of the day, it's you, you live and die alone.
Okay, and there's, for me, a person who has chosen not to have children till further notice and is open to maybe never. I'm thinking for those of you who are out there, and you are thinking you are like me, explore that possibility. But be honest, understand that at some point, it might change. If it does change. There is no shame in changing your mind. If you change your mind and you want to have children do have children. Open yourself talk about all the possibilities, biological, the surrogacy, IVF adoption, be open minded, but also be cognizant of time. Right? Be fair to your kids find out if you're having kids for the right reasons. Don't leave it too late. And I mean, too late biologically don't make them orphans by the time they are 10 or 20. Right. So be honest about your choices. explore those choices, there are benefits. I know we've wax lyrical about benefits of having children, but there are benefits not having children there that for that extra income, you can buy more whiskey, literally. travel more and just free. Coming back, and just everyone, it's not for everyone, but guys, Lenny and crystal, thank you so much. This has been fun. This has been very, very, very informative. Thank you so much for joining me for this discussion, and everyone listening, listening out there. Thank you so much for taking the time for joining Emma's view. Be sure to tune in next week for the next episode. And then I'll be letting you know how to reach us out on social media. And also just getting your feedback on this. Thank you. Forget that. Cheers.