Do your kids speak their traditional language? Does it matter if they do? If both parents have different religious beliefs, which religion are the kids raised in? It’s commonly said that today we live in a global village, as such, we are global citizens. But, what does that mean for us Africans, or Ugandans? Ronnie, Abbey and Melanie discuss this and get into various aspects of how they are choosing to raise their children today. Are they teaching them their traditional languages or religions, how does that look when parents have divergent religious or tribal backgrounds? They discuss the challenges and triumphs with raising kids in Africa, while still aware of global cultures. They also explore attitudes from other African cultures and the role that pop culture phenomena like Tik Tok plays in how they raise their children.
Melanie 0:11
Hi, welcome to EMS view the podcast that goes into the topics that you want to think about or maybe not what to think about. But maybe you're to try to think about wherever you just can have the bandwidth to think about them, but they're really at the back of your mind. And you really, really want to know. So it gets to discussing these things, finding out who and what people think about it. And then also, you also have a chance later on, I'll tell you the show and how you can get in touch with us to give us your two cents as well. And today in the studio Joining me is Ronnie how Bossa who I have known for ages and it's kind of weird to introduce him as but he's like MC extraordinaire. I mean this guy like we go way back down we write absolutely loads and loads of stuff that he's that he does so much. And I just know him as this communication guy who just does stuff stuff with events, right? Yeah. Is that is that is that kind of I'm sorry, in this kind of this show. I don't go all about
Unknown Speaker 1:10
guys simple profile really.
Melanie 1:15
Also, Joining me in studio is abaca. mela about down as he wants to be known. So Nicola. Wow. So and you know, it's funny this time, because this particular topic, it just works out that I actually have two gentlemen, and no lady, which is interesting, because we usually hear from women when it comes to children and decisions when it comes to parenting and upbringing and stuff. And it's just fresh to actually have just men's point of view. It is a good thing. So now we're gonna talk about culture. And both of your father's so are you teaching your kids traditional culture? If so, and why? And again, let's just see culture in terms of tradition in terms of let's say, your tribal culture, your religion, so on and so forth. Are you actually delving into going to your own culture and transmitting that to your children? So and why we'll start with you, Abby.
Abbey Kafumbe 2:14
That's a very interesting topic. Because my kids maganda mom is actually have a photo. Oh, yeah. So you see how quick and, and grand the relatives on the my side? Yeah, uh, complaining there Luganda isn't as good as it should be. It's not up to scratch this is up to scratch. Yeah, is it ever for bad I did that on purpose because I was born in Nairobi. So the first time we spoke was hilly. And so we came over in 86 I was speaking Swahili, Swahili. Me so my father went through what I'm going through right now. So he sends me to boarding school in P two and p three and p four. Land Luganda Okay, and boy today land Luganda I came back the English had gone gone and my Luganda was crazy but a thing we fell off having done that because those two years felt like 10 years of login I can read it so fast. I can write it so fast. I can read and write Yeah, so fast as we deprecate the paper from my grandmother before she died. Yeah, so Wow. So those two years did for me and
Unknown Speaker 3:31
speaking I thought schools you know, yeah. Where bonds or stocks to you? No,
Abbey Kafumbe 3:38
no, actually Luganda was taught like from from first principles. Yeah. English vowels rom bonds. Yeah. In the proverb and man if I will get I can go deep. Come on. Yeah. So those two years did that for me. So I'm so I'm raising my kids. The way I grew up because it helped me not be very sensitive man. It would be a bigger mystery. No, my problem with culture is this culture made a lot of sense if we never interacted with anyone outside our villages. Yeah, no. So you know your culture blah, blah, blah. But the more the deeper you go into your culture the more you alienate those we're not we're not and then basically forget about its tribalism. Was that everyone thinks no, no, we are the ones were the ones No, oh, you said like Gandhi chubby chubby, or whatever security you know, it's like a joke but to be honest. Exactly. Look, you traveled him and before you know it, we get divided along smaller lines. Instead of being divided along bigger lines like East Africa for trade. Yes. Yeah. Okay. Here we afford this by introducing Swahili in Tanzania. So Kumar can marry up. Yes. So I didn't know someone might get to know where they come from. You can't know where you're going if you don't know where you're coming from. Yeah, so I'm teaching them maganda from first principles that I learned. I bought books from Uganda bookshop, here you go. Yes, we numbers ABC, okay? And the learnings were first and they love it. Okay, but I also have to make sure I just sprinkle you know, sprinkle, dip them in there. Because I don't want them to be bigoted later on life thinking that in and moganda is not my persona can do business with me. No. Yeah. Okay. So like a balance. A balance. Yeah. Okay.
Unknown Speaker 5:35
Okay. Wow. I just pick it up from them. Yeah, yeah. And like, I think I should just share my story. So my parents had me I think, though, just done with university or something like that. My dad is a Michigan, my mom was a material. So those are not too divergent or too different. But are still that sense to leave with my grandmother, the first years, you know, for Porto? That's my mom's side. And so yes, I guess I spoke ritorno fluently till about the age of Well, well, two, you can say fluently I was just learning how to speak really? Yeah, until about two two and a half. And then as a family we we had to relocate we we moved to Harare, Zimbabwe. And so now that's new culture, new languages and all of that. So I don't know my return must have dropped there. There's all this this shrine of Islam there, they read his you know, yeah, all Zimbabwe people listening manga, and I need to you all, and, you know, then come back, come back at the age of about six or seven. And, you know, in our home, we would never really spoke, you know, our mother tongue. Parents, we it was really just English. And I think it was just because we're, you know, moving a lot like that. But now that I have my kids, and as a result, unlike Abby, I never really got a proper grip, or Command, you know, of my mother tongue. Yes, I can speak enough to communicate, ask for food and you know, you know, good survive and get by, but I never really was able to grab it as I ought to, you know, and to be honest with you, that, that when I think about it left me feeling fairly inadequate, in in a certain sense, you know, especially when you met those aunts and uncles, or Leica and, and, you know, they just shut waving and, and they can tell, you know, you start to avoid them. And it's, it was just a feeling of awe, you know, and so now that I have kids, the question is, what are we going to do about it, you know, and my wife, on the other hand, was also a little a little deeper into culture and raised a little more like that, but not as much either way. So here you are two parents, who are not very cultural or the word is not tribalistic. Not very culture. I think, I think that I think says that all I know, we have kids, what are we going to do about it? You know, and the truth is, we're doing everything in our means to be able to teach the children their culture, because culture is certainly important culture is your interest, your true north, you know, it's it's your focus, it always brings you back to who you add grounds, you, you know, we have so many people out there who don't have a sense of culture, and they don't have a sense of belonging. And so we've done everything we can to, you know, teach them the ways of the tribe, take them to the village, you know, let them meet with the grandparents. All our house helps, you know, speak. In fact, we always get house Arabs who don't speak English at all. So that has really helped and it's, it's amazing, it's quite impressive. How much of you know, the local language that they can speak so, so yeah, I think that that paints a picture of where we're at right now. Yeah.
Melanie 9:03
Okay. Okay. So, but now, let me let me ask in terms of now, because both of you have now just to get it correct, Abby, you are maganda your wife is matorral younger, right? Ronnie, you are much sugar moto. Yeah. And your wife is much, much younger. Okay, so So let me ask a question. Is there always an especially because there's a divergence here is there always a debate struggle? Language, yes, which language are you going with? And there are also variations and I say this there are variations in terms of culture, and how we approach things and daily life between, say, Central, like Central Uganda and Westerners typically, right. Is there always is there that tug of war kind of struggle in terms of when how you teach the kids and when What values you teach the kids and because I'll tell you I'm part maganda, part neuro. And even though you can't tell them neuro apart from anyone in this country, because we look like everyone across the board, so, yes, we're so into marriage, we are still very different from maganda. I know this, even though I don't even speak the language, there are things my parents will say. And I'm just like, hey, that's a maganda spoken speaking or some like a neuro. I just say, you know, I just so I just wonder when it comes to the kids, do you find a happy medium? How do you settle that?
Abbey Kafumbe 10:34
Now, because it see, usually the mothers, the mother side, has a higher influence on the kids and the dad side, you know, with the more loving for the party. Oh, you know, my wife is firm. And even my wife as well, she's have families and young Korean medicine material, but the Torah side took her in, you know, because they are very loving. Yeah. It has taken my kids as well, you know, because yeah.
Because I had I have older siblings and cousins. So they've seen babies before. So my baby, isn't that exciting? Because so many of us know. My mom's know my wife said, She's the eldest. Yeah, so he fussed over them, you know, way more than my side of the family. Yeah. So but but even then, it's it's English. Now apart from Paco and the rest is English, English, English, English, English, like it's very cosmopolitan, and even have friends, even his friends. He goes to school with, like, everything is English, English, English, English. And I think it's not something to be proud of. But I like the way things are going. Because once we, once the lines that define us become blurry, then we can work towards I mean, it won't matter with meringue, you'll be looking at the mind. Right? Then you will be thinking at a survival level. Not tribal, my tribe, my culture is better than yours. And if you could do this seven keeps talking about by the way, integrity if you appear, the fighting because the guy's integrity, the fast fast guys in power. Now they feel entitled they're not dependable. They're like, I know, I went to northern Nigeria. Yes, yeah. So no, it's so if a president from a certain tribe comes that gets like, it's our turn to eat. That mentality, yeah, is brought about by people being so deeply entrenched in their culture, which is a good thing, but deeply entrenched, like anything, you know, like even religion. Yeah. Any extremism is not good focus. Yeah, it's a global village. You can have so many tribes man, I don't know. Why. Yes. So if everyone is proud of this thing, and they deeply must in their thing, yeah. Let me tell you, they'll have trouble having their kids married female. So the key is when you fail to find out if you get Yeah, yeah, not at home. When you're growing up. That stuff is cool. When you come out into the real world, man, you realize when you tonight at higher levels, and just you know, yeah. But though, though, it's still important for kids to know where they come from. Yes, they are. Yeah, you know, yeah. But not to use that in everything in day to day basis.
Unknown Speaker 13:33
Exactly. Yeah. I
Abbey Kafumbe 13:34
think there's a balance, which is, which we should find, but finding the balance is also not easy. You're talking about the major get Yeah, I got me to speak Luganda. So my kids could learn the means took it as an opportunity for them to learning.
Unknown Speaker 13:50
To plan Yeah, that's a lot. Yeah. But that's not the thing with Cloud says so we all agree culture is great culture gives you a focus culture, like we said, you know, defines your TrueNorth and that sense of belonging and all of that, but everything needs balance. And so when you look at culture, there's cultural practices, even amongst the Machida which which are great. And they said, which are not so great. Okay. You know, ladies should not eat eggs or chicken or whatever. When you go deep down, you find out you know, this was some greedy chief. Yes, so some things in culture. It's okay. And there's nothing wrong with us, discarding them. Yeah, of course. We have to be balanced and be careful not to, you know, throw away the baby with the bathwater. Yeah, forget about culture. We're now cosmopolitan is global village and all of that. Yeah. No. And then when kids go to school, you know, these million cultures in my kids are all in International School and the things they learn the people they interact with, they there's just so many cultures, you know, but at the end of the day, they still need to Have a definition of who they are and where they're from. And so I think as a family, my wife and I have taken it, I don't know if this is a notch higher or done it a little bit different. So yes, we have achieved them, but we are they have as a family. And as they have as a family, we have a culture, we have norms, we have practices, this we do things like this, you know. And so in the same way, I mean, I'm able to call out my kids and say, we have us don't do that, you know, and so it's its culture, its culture, but But now, and then you know, me media. Yeah. So So in as far as the language that sugar culture is concerned, or done everything, we best know how to, you know, take them to the village, meet the grandparents interact, learn the language as much as possible. The cartoons I have a car toto and watch. You know, all the maids, like I've said, Well, we've had the same mate for for about 10 years, but she's really done a great job in because she only speaks to them in well, she's only on color, which is really the same thing. And when they talk to her, it's when they speak to us, well, they switch it up a bit. So we've done that, that part of the culture, but like I said, taking it another notch higher to have the highest culture, what's our culture? You know, how do we do things? Like saying, you know, I'm a religious guy, and also, you have cultural is what you call a super culture, which is like your religious culture, your belief system, you know, so even in that we the things we do we have devotion, before we go to bed or whatever they have, like, when I was growing up, we had a family culture of like Sunday lunch, as a family, you know, and I've seen people talk about this, and even after they get married, it's just something they carry on with, you know, every Sunday, they bring all the family together, have lunch. And so there are elements that you can have as the cafe family culture, you know, we do our chores on time, we, you know, we don't, my wife always tells the kids I called you once you know. You know, and so this building, yeah. And it's funny, because you see that the kids learned, you know, and my wife, for example, my three year old, until the kids, I don't call you more than twice. And so I also had her calling her sisters and says, you know, I call you but you can see, and hopefully when they grow up, that have a culture that DNA is going to stick with them. And they're going to do things, whether it's Sunday brunches, every time or meet us family, and you know, keep keep together. So yeah, I think that's, that's, that's what I wanted to share.
Abbey Kafumbe 17:57
And I think that's where the world is heading more towards humanism. You know, like, how do you be a good? A good, a good global citizen? Yeah. You know, the culture, being respectful elders, don't do this. Take pay attention to someone else's feelings. You know, now, I think those are taking over now. Yeah, more than the deep, deep things of you can eat chicken. It was a woman, you know, yeah. Which is a female genital mutilation. So you're like, we have to love our culture. But then are you telling us to stop FGM? You know, yeah, it's getting so blurry and confusing. Like you said, if you have a obasa culture, that's a good way to to hinge and you know, you borrow this. Yeah, delete that. That.
Melanie 18:42
customize that. That's, that's a very interesting thing. Now, I want to ask you guys, and especially now, because, and for me, I'm really, really interested in the ganda culture, because I guess maybe a proclivity is that baganda emphasize quite a number of things. And
Unknown Speaker 18:59
unapologetic, and no,
Melanie 19:02
no, because you have the figurehead of the carvaka. Yeah. It becomes literally a draw to see children being taught certain things. And I'm just like, Do you have any hesitation about some of these things that are being taught sometimes? Are you how do you sift through and so that one, I'll take that, I want to take that, and I'll take that I want to do you guys sit down? Do you sit with your wife or your family and say, Okay, this one will do this one will not do? Or is it just saying, you know, what, maybe I'll dip away from all of this very strict adherence to or how does that work for
Abbey Kafumbe 19:37
you, man, it's not easy at all, and no one really sees moments like, you know, like, if it's traditional day at school, yeah, no, yeah, that's what we'll be talking about, you know, as maganda you know, I'm embracing him in the tunica jacket, you know, like, silver ganda, you know, Then the girl a cup of tea, you know, and then like you talk about them, but then we'll talk about that all day. It will be for that day. That term. Yeah. But then we ask questions. And that's uncle omega. That's uncle is my cousin, you know, is because and by the way, you know, the lineages and clans from the clan head. Yeah, yeah, yes. We are we we the different levels. Yes. An amateur level in my family, by the way. It's been, you know, my dad was and his dad was Yeah. Okay. So I had like, exciting. Length. Yeah. That in families. Yeah. So in that hierarchy. And you know, that's how organized Buganda was. And that's why we can be like, well, let's just use this tool to our benefit. Yeah. But now, because of that, it attracted everyone. Yes, it's ready, everyone. Yes. And it has diluted. Sadly, or depends on how you look at it. It has diluted and there has to be changed. And, you know, we change can resistance. Yeah, yeah, I'm a proud maganda. And I can name my six grandfather's. My mums and dads, let me tell you. But on a global scale,
Unknown Speaker 21:23
you know, for us.
Abbey Kafumbe 21:28
But I do realize that things are changing so fast, faster than it did when our grandparents didn't see that back in the day to change like 100 years. But nothing's changed in two years. You like, we can't do that anymore. We know that will lead to dies. I mean, so the older, the older, baganda My people, yeah, I find it difficult to change them to the roads in the villages. Oh, Tamaki mines, like urbanization is getting so close. So fast. And, you know, everyone so confused. So it's confusing. But in all this, we have to accept change. No, no. But when you change what you throw out, where do you live in? So confused? Still a bit of a? Yes. So, um, for the kids, we just going along, just going along, you know, what, when I don't like about the culture, I just won't tell them. Yeah, but I'm proud of the college. We will go to, you know, okay. Okay. Yeah. But it's a case by case by case basis. Yeah. But
Unknown Speaker 22:29
the change is actually happening. And I mean, not too long ago, we saw the meticulous data, I think, sometime last week or so. Yeah. Howard Dean, and I don't know, this might not have been had over a few years ago, will be like, but I think that's, that's an awesome example. And I think even his firstborn is my common Euro. And now, this guy is either a foreigner or Jambo somebody like that. And for some of the stones, cultural people that might have been an huddled when I interact with my family, you know, the elders, and while you know, sometimes these the sentiments that come through, was a bit low. But that's how they were raised. And then they might talk about another culture with a rather condescending tone, or, you know, and and that's just not good. You know, I get concerned, for example, so I'm from the West, the ruling party on the west. And then when I'm on Facebook, and everyone's like, are you guys eating yo. Hardly ever got more than 10k because of where I'm from. Yeah. And for me to be ostracized, because I'm from the West, or whatever it is, I find it a bit unfair, you know, the time there was a little bit of chaos in town and saying, Yeah, you know, when you say my father's trouble on the first we are coming for, and that's just sad, because then, whereas, yes, the ruling party might be from the west and what, not all of us, I don't know, you can just put us all in the same bandwagon and treat us a certain way. Because, you know, or direct anger towards towards us, which, which is really just not right, from what you're saying, you know, so that's the concern that I have, and I don't know if that answers your question.
Melanie 24:28
Okay, cool. Um, now, for me, it's an another question I had, and this one is very, I'm going to go for both of you because you, both of you, for my understanding, have unique situations in terms of this. So now we're talking about culture. And that's a lot to do with our tradition and stuff like that. What which passing on to our children, but then as typically Africans will have culture then we'll also have religion or faith. Right? And I know both of you guys are people of faith. Now we'll start with you, Ronnie. How do you teach both culture and faith. Are there any clashes? Are there any points of intersection of their points of divergence when you're teaching your kids between your faith and and the culture that you're trying to teach them as well?
Unknown Speaker 25:15
Yeah. All right. So and I should think of good examples to use here. So you have your culture, which is my culture rather than culture. And then there is my religion. So I'm a Christian, have a healthy relationship with God, Pentecostal, if you like, tank speaking dementia saying. And that's, that's what we subscribe to as a family. And so if I hear you, right, is that a clash sometimes with, you know, teaching them the cultural ways, and then teaching them the religious ways. And like, I put it for me, my religion or my relationship with God, that's also a culture of its own. Yeah. And I think it's a little bit above it's, it's the ultimate culture, in my own opinion. And that's why I call it a super culture. And so everything else about now that culture needs to be juxtaposed with, you know, and then and then it's just simple after that to align. When I went to the village, not too long ago, we took from Kabbalah around like when you're new. And so we took a boat ride. And on the boat ride, we saw the different islands is a little island, they called the punishment Island. On the punishment Island, they would go and dump girls who, you know, got pregnant before before they were married or whatever. And it's a gothic place. Even the trees, they're dry. It's just you know, the bugs they are from movie Oh, you know, just, there's just something about that place, you know, if my daughter got pregnant now, God forbid I would I would I follow the cultural norms. Certainly not. So I guess to answer you, it's not even a hard ask a hard question. It's simply one culture supersedes another. And if one culture says, you know, love your brothers, you love yourself. And in the culture things, it's more closed, then, you know, you need to open up those doors because yeah, so I don't know if I answer you. But yeah, it's a simple one for
Melanie 27:24
us. And now, uh, before you are now other for me, I just want to I want to go from so you, you have the agenda, culture. What faith do you follow?
Abbey Kafumbe 27:37
Um, no, very, very complicated.
Unknown Speaker 27:41
Do you follow any?
Abbey Kafumbe 27:43
I don't follow any faith. I was raised Muslim.
Melanie 27:46
Okay. Okay. And now what do you subscribe to?
Abbey Kafumbe 27:51
I don't I subscribe to science.
Unknown Speaker 27:54
Agnostic humanistic. Well. No, no,
Abbey Kafumbe 27:57
I do want to be labeled because, okay. Okay. Okay. If you say agnostic, if you say yeah, atheist, you're tagging me to something to do? Yes. And then yet my mind goes way beyond that.
Unknown Speaker 28:09
You're done with
Abbey Kafumbe 28:11
the leprechauns it includes beaters in school, every every superstitious belief to just go down one level. Okay. Yeah. Now, of course, I'm not going to force it on my kids.
Melanie 28:24
But wait, what does you Does your wife subscribe to this? Different my
Abbey Kafumbe 28:28
wife is just like Mr. cabassa. Here. She does worship harvest. Even when she misses I remind them like, Hey, you haven't go to the respective religions, you know, because I know religion is a is a crutch, you know? And like these COVID times I'm telling you like, it's a support support system.
Melanie 28:47
When you say support and crush those are two different things. My friend Reverend
Abbey Kafumbe 28:53
Al Sharpton called the guy crutch.
Melanie 28:56
Support is a positive word, which is what it crushes? No, no, no, no, no crutch means you can't stand on your own. You need support? Yes. And
Abbey Kafumbe 29:08
most people can't. Well, right. Yeah. Yeah. You see, you can go deep into that. Okay. Um, the reason, the reason I, of course, my memory made people proud of me, you know, they wanted me to be a maganda Muslim, you know, because, you know, but I didn't end up that way. If things don't add up for me, I won't hold that line, especially if it comes at a cost, you know? So, my kids, they know we're Muslim. They have Muslim names. Yeah. Okay. Um, they go to a Christian school the ark. Okay, you know,
Unknown Speaker 29:47
worship harvest and
Abbey Kafumbe 29:48
Sunday. No, mommy, mommy's online. Harvest. Yeah. We pray before we eat.
Unknown Speaker 29:56
Praying what type of prayer
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